S6E20: I Lost My Brother, Then Breast Cancer Changed How I Grieved

Welcome to the Besties With Breasties podcast.

I'm Beth Wilmes, author, speaker, and founder of a human investment organization otherwise known as a nonprofit called Faith Through Fire.

Our mission is to reduce the fear and anxiety breast cancer patients feel and replace it with hope and a path toward thriving.

I'm Jess, a mom of two, former college soccer player, elementary PE teacher, and fitness enthusiast.

I was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer just before my 40th birthday.

And I'm Jamie, researcher, retired professional boxer, and breast cancer survivor who keeps life busy and joyful with a funny farm of animals, a loving family, and a big heart to serve.

Others.

This podcast is about our experiences with breast cancer.

And life after as young survivors and moms.

So I read something that was really interesting when I was.

So this whole episode is about our relationship to suffering.

And when you and I were discussing doing a podcast about relationship to suffering, you actually said, I feel like I really suffered when my brother died.

And I was like, oh, well, if you feel comfortable, like, let's talk about that, which is why we're here.

But I. I read something that I thought was kind of interesting when I looked up, like, what is suffering?

And one of the definitions said that suffering is what happens when life doesn't go the way you want it to.

Wow, that seems like such a simple definition.

It almost seemed overly simplified and almost just like.

That doesn't really encompass suffering.

Yes.

Because to me, suffering means like a deep trauma where you don't even have the words and you can't even cry.

It's like, almost like a wailing or like a groaning where you're, like, ripping your clothes off of your body because you're just so upset, and you can't even put into words what you are feeling or what the emotion is.

Yeah.

You can't even talk to me.

It seems so much deeper.

That was my reaction, too.

I'm like, life not going the way you want feels just like life.

Right.

Suffering feels like that guttural.

Like you said, that guttural pain that no word can express.

Right.

So I was like, I don't know.

I respectfully disagree with your definition of suffering.

I feel like it's way worse than that, than just me not getting my way in life.

Right.

You know what I mean?

Right.

Okay, so today we're gonna talk to you about the loss of your brother and how you experienced deep emotional suffering during that time.

So we're gonna talk about how suffering shattered the life that you expected.

Then we're gonna talk about how relationship and suffering Determines whether we get stuck or slowly healing.

And finally, we'll land on how suffering can deepen our humanity.

But the caveat being that we don't really glorify the pain.

Right?

Right.

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So tell me about your brother.

Was he older, younger?

Yes.

Give me context.

How many siblings in your family?

Okay, so I have two brothers.

Okay.

Both of them are older than me.

Okay, so you're the baby.

I'm the baby.

My brother Jason is eight years older than me, and then my brother Justin was seven years older than me.

Okay.

So they.

And I am from a single family home, so it was just my mom and my two brothers and I growing up.

Okay.

All right.

And what was your relationship like with Justin?

Like,.

Were you similar or were you different?

Now, looking back at who he was as a person, I do think we have a lot of similarities.

He was just always like my big brother, and he looked out for me.

You know, I think both of my brothers carried, like, their big brother role very serious because we didn't have a dad, and me being a girl and me being younger than they were just both always very protective of me.

Justin in particular, he just always brought the fun.

And, like, when he would come in town, we would every day we would go to 711 and get a slurpee.

We always did things or he would take me out for a date to go to the muni and dinner and things like that.

So.

As an Adult.

He did that.

It was more growing up when I was younger.

Teen years through high school and maybe even college a little bit.

So was he married at the time, or this was before.

Like, was he younger?

How old was he?

So he was young.

Well, he's seven years older than me, so he would have been, like, in his 20s, but he traveled a lot.

So after he went to college, he traveled.

So he would not be home for, like, long periods of time.

And then when he would come home, then we would have, like, good quality family time.

That's actually really sweet.

My son is not really protective of his younger sisters.

Maybe he'll get there.

I think he might.

But also a different dynamic.

Right.

I was gonna say you have Gary.

Yeah.

Well.

And I also wonder if.

Yeah.

If Gary wasn't in the picture, if Ben would feel more of a responsibility toward his little.

Sisters.

Well, yeah, maybe.

And we had quite a age difference.

My brothers were seven and eight years older than me, so that's true.

So that makes a difference.

Cause they were a little bit more mature, maybe.

So we don't have a lot of information.

My father, or biological father has never been in the picture.

We did learn, like, late in life that he had a lot of heart issues.

And he had had two heart attacks.

One was really serious.

And so I know that that was a concern of Justin's.

Cause we talked about it.

But.

As far as you knew, did he struggle with any kind of health issues leading up to that, like high blood pressure or anything?

No.

Wow.

And was he married or anything in a relationship when he.

Nope.

Wow.

So you just get a phone call one day?

Yeah.

I mean, it was in the middle of the night.

My brother.

My other brother called me.

And how did he find out?

I mean.

Cause he didn't live near you guys, right?

He was out of.

Town?

No.

So I guess it had been a day or two since one of Justin's friends had heard from him.

And so his friend went over and.

Found him.

Found him.

And they had, like, his door was locked and he had an apartment, so they had to get the, you know, super.

To unlock it.

And then.

Oh, my gosh.

I can't imagine how his.

Her.

You know, the friend felt.

Yeah.

Going in there, and then you get this call in the middle of the night.

And I mean, I have goosebumps just thinking about what that call must have felt like and just how surreal and shocking and just like, trying to process in real time, like, what you're being told, like, what was your.

How was your brother when he called to tell you.

Was he hysterical?

Was he calm?

Like, was he in shock?

No, he was not hysterical.

My brother Jason's always been like a calm like voice of reason.

I mean, he was upset and I mean, I think it was just shocking because it's like you're getting woken up in the middle of the night by, you know, it was 3:30 in the morning and then you see, then I see that it's my brother Jason and I'm like, my stomach just immediately drops.

Yeah.

Cause why are they calling?

It's like there's no good reason to call in the middle of the night if it's anything.

Right.

So what does that grief feel like?

Because I have not yet processed a loss of that magnitude yet.

Do you immediately just go numb?

Yep.

I think that, I think it took a long time to sink in.

I think it was just like the shock and just like kind of coming to terms with it and wrapping my head around it.

It just seemed surreal.

And he wasn't here like in St. Louis.

So that makes it different.

When you can't like rush anywhere, there's no place to go.

Yeah.

Like, did it feel like there was no closure?

Because I know like when my.

This is weird, but like when my mother in law died, she died at home and we rushed over to the house and we were able to see her and my husband's like, I didn't love that.

But for me it felt like it was like, okay, this happened and she's really not here anymore.

There was a weird sense of closure, like, okay, this is real.

But I imagine like if he's out of town.

And you.

Can't put your hands on the situation directly, that would feel really strange.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was.

I think that that probably added to it just feeling very.

I mean, I don't know if it would have helped or not, but the closure piece was hard because there was no place to go.

It was like, you're just.

I was just stuck here.

And of course my brother Jason went and took care of everything and brought him home.

But.

And then we went to my.

My brother lives in Colorado, Jason.

So we went to Colorado and that helped to kind of be all together.

But that was still, you know, a week, a week later.

So it was really.

It was just kind of, you're stuck and there's nothing.

There was no place to go.

There's nothing to do except for just kind of sit in it.

And it was very terrible.

It was very unpleasant.

How did your mom.

I'm envisioning this because it sounds like you were close to your brothers.

What about your mom?

How did she handle this news?

I mean, I think like any mother would, she was beside herself.

She ended up breaking out into, like, a terrible rash.

And I took her to the urgent care.

She passed out.

Then we ended up in the hospital for two days with her because they were running every test because Justin had just passed from a heart attack.

And so then they're trying to run everything on her to make sure she's okay.

So.

Yeah, it was.

It was awful.

It was awful.

Well, and I mean, how many years after your brother's death did you get breast cancer?

So 2016.

And then I was diagnosed in 2021.

Okay.

So.

It was five.

Years.

I just think, like, there's a connection between loss and grief and other traumas and then potentially getting sick yourself.

So it doesn't surprise me at all that your mom would collapse and start having physical symptoms.

Right.

Because your body just like, doesn't know how to process what just happened.

And then it's like it's stuck in there.

Right.

And it has to come out.

Well.

And I think I had a hard time processing it.

And I never really let those emo.

I mean, I did let them out, but I. I don't know that I handled it the.

The best way.

And I do believe that there's a correlation to that trauma.

And then we had a couple other traumas in our family.

And so I think all of those combined led me to a place of.

Well, yeah, because between the time your brother died and your breast cancer diagnosis, your sister in law also.

Right,.

So my sister in law passed away in 2013.

Okay.

She was diagnosed with gastric cancer.

So she passed.

First.

She passed, then.

Your brother,.

Then my brother,.

Then your diagnosis.

Then my nephew also passed away.

Oh, my gosh, Jess.

I know we.

Our family has experienced a lot of loss, and it's.

I mean, I wouldn't wish it.

Aren't anybody.

It's terrible.

So do you feel because you said that you didn't think that you.

You thought you were processing or you thought that you were doing what you needed to be doing, but, like, in hindsight, you feel like you should have been grieving differently or should have been doing, like, did you go see a therapist about any of this loss or did you try to manage it yourself?

Like, where do you think when you look back at it and you're like, oh, I could have probably done that different.

Like, that's what I just heard from you.

Is that wrong?

I definitely think I could have done things differently.

I know when my sister in law passed away.

She passed away first.

I didn't, like, reach out to people.

I didn't really talk about it.

I just kind of shoved all of my feelings inside.

And then when Justin passed away, one of my friends came over and she.

That was the first thing she said.

She was like, jessica, you have to let people in to help you, because this is gonna be hard.

And I did try to let people in, but I think I did a terrible job because don't.

We.

All?

Literally, for months, I shrunk into a shell of myself.

I couldn't smile, I couldn't laugh.

I couldn't enjoy any moment.

I just felt awful.

And I felt like if I did laugh, then I was somehow making light of his loss.

And it felt like I couldn't do that in order to, like, honor his memory.

I felt disloyal to be happy.

Right.

And so I. I mean, it.

It was months and months of just not being who I am.

And it took me a long time to kind of come out of that.

Yeah, I kind of want to go into that moment where you had to basically make the decision that I think a lot of people have to make at a certain point in life, like whether to stay stuck or find a way forward.

But before we do that, you want to do Boobs in the News?

Yeah, let's do it.

Boobs in the News is a fun segment where we read funny tweets by real people or ridiculous news stories.

Boobs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

So the title of this is Boy struck by Lightning in New York City's Central Park.

Says he feels lucky.

Well, he lived to tell the story.

Well, that's great.

Yeah.

But what are the statistics for getting hit by lightning?

That's.

That's a pretty.

That's a good question.

I don't know, it's.

A pretty narrow.

Oh.

It says lightning kills around 30 people a year, but it's not usually fatal, which I would have thought that it would be.

Yeah,.

It says 90% of people are injured.

Okay,.

So that.

Makes sense.

I kind of assume that if you got struck by lightning, you were done.

Me too.

And what is the protocol for when you get struck by lightning?

That.

So that's my question.

Because I have a weird relationship with electricity and that I don't understand how it works.

I.

Mean, I just feel like your whole is getting shot.

Like if you got electrocuted by lightning, could I touch you without also getting electrocuted?

Like, are you.

I don't.

No, I don't think so.

So.

So that's my point.

It's like, I don't know what the protocol is.

Well, maybe it says something.

So this kid was a high school sophomore and he was in the park with friends enjoying a picnic.

Oh, that's kind of cute.

Like this boy on a picnic, picnic in Central park with his friends.

And what are the chances in New York, at Central park that this is, like, where this story happens?

Maybe that's why it made the news.

Well, so he says, I leaned up against a tree and I said, hey, guy.

Oh, okay.

So I guess they were in the park enjoying their picnic, and then it says a storm suddenly rolled in.

Which my first instinct would be like, let's get out of Dodge.

Right.

Like, I'm not going to hang out.

But he said that he literally leaned up against a tree and said, hey, guys, let's ride out the storm.

And he goes, in hindsight, not the best idea.

Nope.

So he's the boob.

Because he didn't.

He did not.

Kill it out there.

And his friends were like, okay.

So he said he was knocked unconscious for several minutes, and then another 17 year old witnessed the scene and saw that his friends were frantically calling for help and trying to revive him.

So I guess they, like, rushed to him and started like, cpr.

She said it was scary.

I was crying.

The boy said that he was conscious when taken by ambulance to the hospital where he was treated for burns on his neck and leg, but he's expected to make a full recovery.

And he said, apparently I'm pretty lucky because my spine was directly against the tree.

But no nerve damage happened, so he didn't lose motor function.

He goes, so I'm pretty happy about that.

Does that not sound like a teenage boy?

That definitely does.

My question was, I mean, I guess the lightning hit the tree, which then, like, went into his body.

But part of me would have thought the tree would have, like, the wood would have, like, helped ground him a little bit.

Or maybe it took like the brunt of the electric.

I don't know.

That's what I'm saying.

I don't understand electricity much.

Like, I don't understand our air conditioning unit.

Like, I'm just not good.

Carrie's always trying to explain to me how air conditioning, like how the AC adjusts.

And I'm like, that's not how that works.

And he goes, it's absolutely how it works.

Yeah.

I just don't.

My brain doesn't like, Work like that at all.

I don't know how dangerous it is to be, like, touching something, you know, like, a tree is not metal.

No.

I always thought, like, lightning.

It's like, you don't.

I don't know.

When we.

When we went camping with the kids before we got a camper and we were tent camping, I do remember, like, there were multiple times where there was, like, a big storm would roll in and we're like, under a canopy of trees, and I would just sit there, lay there in this drippy tent with crying babies going, I wonder if lightning hits the tree limb,.

Is it going to hit?

Are.

We in danger?

Like, is it going to give us an electric shock?

Is it going to hit the tent?

I don't know.

I don't know how it works, but, yeah, I'd say this kiddo is very lucky.

But maybe he's the boob for not getting out of Dodge when the storm rolls in.

I think so.

It's ironic that he's the one that suggested that they stay and then he's the one that got electrocuted.

Well, and I guess the girl that did the cpr or the friend.

Yeah,.

She didn't get electro electrocuted, so she's probably.

No, that's what I'm saying.

So, like, is it.

Safe once?

So it must be safe, I would think.

Otherwise she would have also had some burns or some side effects, I would think.

I would think so.

Well, there's your boobs.

Boobs in the knees, bibs in the knees, bibs in the ears.

I haven't cried.

I mean,.

I.

It's probably coming.

There might be a couple of tears.

I don't know.

I feel like you're like, you put your armor on.

You're like, I will not.

I will not.

Cry.

During this podcast.

I was, like, thinking about it yesterday, and I was thinking about this morning.

And, like, as I'm thinking about it, I'm just, you know, tears coming down.

But.

When you say it out loud.

Cause, like, I knew bits and pieces of your story just from, like, you saying things in passing, but it's like, to hear how much loss in such a short period of time.

I actually just find myself incredibly impressed with you because I think I would be like, this giant puddle.

Like, I don't think I could even.

Like, I think I would have, but I'm the same way.

I don't like.

I don't like showing emotion, but I know it wouldn't work for me to keep it all bottled up either.

Well, I do Think that the emotion.

I think my breast cancer journey has helped me heal from all three of those losses and helped me to process it.

And I do think after getting through the active treatment, trying to live life after breast cancer, the emotions have definitely come out because there has been so many times where I just.

I just cry.

I just cry.

And.

Does that feel good, or does it make you uncomfortable?

Well, a lot of the times it's happened when I'm at school, so that means.

When you're at work.

When I'm at work.

So I am very uncomfortable.

Cause I'm like, oh, my gosh.

Everybody's gonna think she's crying again.

She's crying again.

But I'm trying to say I'm actually healing, but it's just coming out as crying.

Yeah, I'm just, like, really seeing some of these things.

My daughter and I just had this conversation because she was talking about her best friend, and she's like, my best friend cries when she's.

What did she say?

She cries when she's angry.

And I said, oh, that's what I do when I'm up.

Like, when I'm frustrated and angry, I cry.

And then I get mad at myself because I feel weak and vulnerable.

And I'm not even sad.

I'm mad.

Right.

But that's, like, how it comes out.

So it's kind of weird how your emotions will, like, leak out at these really inopportune times, or when you're trying to make a point.

Right.

And then you're just like,.

I know.

I'm definitely like that.

Especially now.

I mean, I'm assuming you said months and months and months.

You just kind of were existing and not really participating in life, which I feel like we can all relate to.

I think all of us have the propensity to.

When hard things happen, you get to this point where you're like, I'm either stuck or I find a way to move forward.

So, like, did you have, like.

Do you remember the moment where you're like, I can't keep doing it like this, or was it gradual?

It was gradual.

It wasn't a specific moment.

But I remember several months later, I got very fixated on my health and, like, was measuring, like, all of my food intake because it was something I could control.

And I was.

I was trying to also make sure that I was healthy because he had just passed away.

And so I think, like, me trying to, like, run and eat specific amounts of all the macros and just be healthy was kind of my way of trying to, like, gain some control, which helped me kind of come out of it, because I just, like, set a few, like, milestones and some goals.

And like, that.

That time I was like, okay, I'm gonna get a pull up.

Because, like, for me, like, a pull up defines strength.

I don't know why.

It's just something I always had wanted to do.

And then.

That's like, grip strength.

They say grip strength is, like, what determines longevity.

It was something I always had been striving for.

And so I was like, I'm gonna get a pull up.

And so I did that.

And then I always wanted to run a Spartan race, so Tom and I signed up for a Spartan race, and we went to Kentucky and we did a Spartan race.

And so there was just, like, certain things that we did.

Did you feel like, did you.

After he passed, like, would you find yourself talking to him and asking for guidance, or did you just have this sense that he was there and that he could, you know, that what he wanted for you?

Because I get the sense from the way you talk about him that he, I mean, definitely didn't have the kind of personality where he'd hated that you were suffering.

Oh, he.

He definitely hated.

Would have hated.

Hated it how I was living.

But, yeah, I definitely think.

Was that a motivator, knowing, like, okay, he wouldn't want this for me, like, I have to, like, honor him by living my fullest life.

Yeah, I.

It was.

And I definitely think little miracles, like, they're not coincidences, but little miracles happen.

You're like, okay, that was Justin.

And like, my husband would point it out.

He'd be like, that was your brother looking out for you.

And so I think that helped.

That really helped.

And it just.

It gave me.

It gave it, like, a little bit of a purpose on why he had to die.

Yeah.

I think people really struggle with this concept of, you know, why people have to suffer, because it just seems so unfair, and it's just so tragic, and it just seems so unnecessary.

But it's.

It all depends on your viewpoint.

And it's like if you view suffering as temporary and not permanent, you know, and it's like, you did get those God winks, you know, you get those opportunities where God reveals himself through, you know, and your brother reveals himself, and kind of right at the exact moment that you need it, like, you can try to explain that to somebody, but it's almost like a soul thing.

You just know it.

Yeah.

You know, and it's like, you can't really explain that.

Right.

It's like that desire to just keep moving forward in the suffering.

It's really hard.

But I'm also interested.

It sounds like your husband was incredibly supportive and.

Yeah, 100%.

Was really good about pointing things out to you, especially when maybe, you know, he knew you were struggling and just reminders, right, that Justin was there and he was guiding you and showing himself in these little ways to propel you forward.

Tom has been amazing.

I didn't know when we got married and we said, I do, how hard life was going to be.

He has stepped up and he has always been right there.

That year in particular, I went running every.

I mean, I was running all the time just to try to be free of the problems, I think.

But a friend and I, we ran in the, in the woods.

We would go to the trails and every Saturday morning we were there and it was never a question.

And we were running like 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.

We were like training for half marathon.

So it was like we were running for a long period of time.

I was gone for like an hour before.

And then when I would get home, I would be like, okay, I need to take a shower.

So it was like an all morning affair.

And he never once made me feel bad.

He was like, you gotta do what you gotta do.

So Tom has, he has been.

For all of the things that I've gone through, he has, he's been amazing.

You know, I take it for granted because I have a husband like that too.

And it's like that solid presence where maybe they're not saying a lot all the time, but it's like you said, they're not.

They're letting you grieve the way you need to grieve.

They're letting you process the way you need to process.

They're reminding you when they need to remind you.

It's such a gift.

Yes.

I always struggle with this idea that suffering has a purpose because I just don't know that it does.

You know what I mean?

Like, when people are like, oh, things happen for a reason, or, you know, suffering is, you know, are there things that can come out of suffering?

Sure.

But I don't think we were ever intended to suffer.

Do you know what I mean?

So I don't know how you can ever sit there and say, oh, but I do think that suffering allows you to see the good things you.

I mean, where do you land on that?

Yeah, I think that it does teach you a new appreciation for life.

Not in the moment when you're suffering, but when you kind of come out of it just being grateful for the moment and seeing the world in a different way.

How has it changed your perspective?

I mean, all this loss and these, you know, what do you think it's done to you to change you as a person?

Like, for me, sometimes I think, like, I just miss being innocent.

Oh, I definitely miss that feeling because I've had that phone call three times now.

And so anytime something happens, or even if Tom calls me at a time that's not a normal time, my stomach drops.

So those are things I have to work on and just, like, taking, like, deep breaths.

But I do think coming out of this, there's just a new appreciation for living in the moment.

And I also think another perspective, it's.

It's given me a lot of empathy for other people that have lost other.

Their loved ones, too.

And I just remember what it feels like and how I felt, and I don't want other people to feel that way.

And then there were certain people that just always treated me so nice and were so kind, like, at school, and even one of my students, I even ended up telling her mom at the end of the school year, but she would always find me when I was, like, tearing up and just having, like, a terrible moment.

And she.

Sometimes she wouldn't say anything.

Sometimes she would just yell my name.

She would give me a pat on the back.

And how old is this student?

She was in fifth grade.

Isn't that something?

Yeah.

So she gives.

Me chills.

I know.

So, like, just remembering people and how they showed up for me and what that looked like for me helps me to know how to help other people that I know that have experienced a loss or are going through something.

So that's really, like, one thing.

That one lesson, I guess I learned.

I didn't really want to learn the lesson, but you don't really know what it feels like to lose somebody so close to you until it happens.

And so now I just.

I just remember what it feels like.

And I try to be a light for those people when they're experiencing their own grief and their own darkness and suffering.

Yeah.

I just had this conversation with my middle daughter, who's 14.

You know how kids like to sit in on adult conversations?

Yes.

So she sat in on a conversation with a bunch of adults, and I didn't think anything of it, but when we got back in the car, she goes, that whole conversation made me sad.

And I said, really?

Why?

And she's like, well.

And I mean, it was just like.

She's like, first people Started talking about how there was a shooting up at Winghaven, which is right near our house, you know, and then they were talking about that woman that just got eaten by an alligator in Florida.

And then.

And she listed, like, seven topics, right?

That just came up in the course of this adult conversation.

And to her credit, she saw something that I didn't, which is that everything was a sad or negative story, and it was just what was going on in the world.

And she goes, I was really hoping to, like, come out of this, you know, just.

I was excited to be part of the conversation.

And I just.

And she's like.

And now I just feel sad and depressed.

And she's like, the world's just such a horrible place.

And I felt terrible.

I was like, well, Emily, I'm like, there are a lot of sad things that happen to people.

And I'm like, it is hard.

And I go, but.

You know.

And she goes, I just don't.

She was really struggling.

And I said, well, I said, that's why we're here, though.

I said, we're here because we can be a light in the darkness.

And I'm like.

And I go, and when you feel sad like that, I said, it is hard, and it's easy to get depressed and it's easy to stay down.

But I'm like.

Or, you know, you can just look at it like I did, which is we need to inject some joy,.

Right?

You know what I mean?

Positivity.

Positivity and joy, not only in our lives, but in the lives of other people.

And so we had this whole conversation about, how can we do that?

We can high five a stranger on the street and give him a smile.

You know, we can pay for somebody's coffee when we get in line at seven Brew.

Like, we had this whole conversation about how it can be very easy to succumb to all the negativity in the world, but there's also an opportunity there, right?

And when you really do feel empathetic towards somebody's suffering, especially if you have that shared experience, you can relate to them in a way that somebody who hasn't been through it can't.

And there's some comfort in that.

I don't know when they're in the depth of that grieving, like, if they notice it right away, But I imagine just knowing that somebody else understands that kind of grief is, in some way makes you feel closer to the world.

I agree.

I mean, there's been several people that I've known, and I just feel like that have lost somebody since I've experienced this.

And even dealing with breast cancer, I mean, other people that know people or that have been diagnosed, it's like, you know exactly how it feels.

And so there.

There doesn't even need to be words.

It's just, I'm gonna be here with you, and I'm gonna walk this journey with you.

And so.

Yeah.

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All right, we're back.

I don't know, Jess.

I'm sure there's a lot of people listening right now that can relate to what you're saying who have been through similar things.

Like, any.

Any words for them, Anything you want to leave people with.

I appreciate you sharing.

This is, like, a sensitive topic.

We were talking about it offline.

Like, this is, like, the first time you've spoken publicly about any of this.

It is.

I definitely think that these losses in my life and even going through breast cancer have taught me like life is.

It's hard, it's unexpected.

It's really hard.

But at the same time, it can be really beautiful.

And it's trying to take the moments that are fun and positive and be thankful for them and kind of look for the good.

When you.

When you look for the good, you see the good and to be a light for other people that are experiencing hard things also.

And so I think that that has been, like, how it kind of makes sense in my head is to just help other people,.

And through that, there's some purpose behind what you've had to go through.

Yeah.

Well said, friend.

Well, thanks for sharing.

You're welcome.

Until next time.

See ya.

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