S6E13: Can You Share Too Much During Breast Cancer?

Welcome to the Besties with Breasties podcast.

I'm Beth Wilmes, author, speaker, and founder of a human investment organization otherwise known as a nonprofit called Faith Through Fire.

Our mission is to reduce the fear and anxiety breast cancer patients feel and replace it with hope and a path toward thriving.

I'm Jess, a mom of two, former college soccer player, elementary PE teacher, and fitness enthusiast.

I was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer just before my 40th birthday.

And I'm Jamie, researcher, retired professional boxer, and breast cancer survivor who keeps life busy and joyful with a funny farm of animals, a loving family, and a big heart to serve others.

This podcast is about our experiences with breast cancer and life after as young survivors and moms.

Okay, so good morning.

Good morning.

You and I have, like, we've been chatting now for like 20, 25 minutes.

Just record.

And I'm like, we just need to set record button here and just jump into this already.

But you were like, what are we talking about?

And I said, well, the first thing we're going to talk about is over sharing.

And I am super curious about your feelings about this, because I have feelings about this.

And it seems like the experts online are divided.

And we can talk about just oversharing in general, because I think we've all met people who are oversharers.

Yeah.

And then we can talk about it in the context of our own personal relationships and how maybe that is related to when medical things happen.

Yeah.

Like, how do you feel about, like, for me, for example, and I'm gonna go on record by saying I'm the prudest person ever.

I really like to keep a lot of mystery in my relationship.

Still, this is.

This is gonna be phenomenal because I'm a recovering oversharer.

So I love it that you're admitting that most of the time, people don't know that they're over sharers.

Oh.

As it's coming out of my mouth, but.

Okay.

Do you want to know what I found when I kind of started researching over sharing?

Do you know why people over share?

Yes.

Let me.

Let me, like, brace my heart real quick because I don't want to internalize this.

I mean, I don't think it's.

I don't think it's bad.

I do think it's insightful.

And likewise, let me just say that if you don't share enough, there's a problem with that too.

Right.

Like, if you're afraid of emotional intimacy, which is.

I veer more that way.

So over sharing is really, at its heart, a bid for connection.

Yep.

It sometimes comes from not feeling seen or heard in your younger years.

And so therefore, like, you want to connect with people in a deeper way.

And so over sharing feels like that way to establish that intimacy.

So I don't love over sharing, both with acquaintances, but also within relationships.

And I think that's where I differ from a lot because I think a lot of couples are like, oh, no.

By really getting into the weeds with my significant other.

Like, they know all my stuff, I know all their stuff.

Both physical and mental were closer.

And I think that's where the experts were kind of divided, because some thought that it brought couples closer together, and some thought that it potentially could put the relationship in some level of risk.

So do you have.

Do you have thoughts on this?

I have so many thoughts.

What I just thought of just then was that, yes, I need to be vulnerable, like with my spouse, but do I need to shave my mustache in front of him?

Probably not.

You know what I mean?

Thank you.

Not if you want him to desire you.

Later, however, I will talk to you about my mustache.

Right?

That's what this platform's for.

There's not a lot of men on here lurking around wanting to know about their lady shaving habits.

So, yeah, in preparation for this, you know, I was looking up all kinds of things because I think we could go down that route with breast cancer, too.

And I think think women.

When I kind of asked women their opinion about sharing during their breast cancer journey, I think most felt like there was no oversharing in that domain.

But this was kind of funny.

I came across this article in Scary Mommy.

Have you ever heard of Scary Mommy?

No.

Some people love it.

I. I'm like, but this article was why farting in front of your partner is actually good for your relationship.

I completely disagree with this sentiment.

The only way I fart in front of Gary is if it's an accident.

And even.

And even 20 minutes, 20 years into our relationship, I'm still mortified.

Farting is like a love language in my house.

Like, it's the thing that makes everyone laugh.

This is so great.

We are so cool.

Also, listen, I accidentally went viral a couple weeks ago on a post talking about farting in fitness classes.

No joke.

It was great timing.

Yeah.

Like, over 2 million views in under a few days.

And it was because a buddy of mine said, do you know how fat leaves the body?

84% Of it turns into carbon dioxide.

And I'm like, oh.

So when people are crop testing in my class, I can say, good for you.

You're losing weight.

Losing weight.

Which is not scientifically accurate, but everyone can relate.

So mortifying.

I always think of those hot yoga studios where everybody's in downward dog, and I'm like, I can't think of anything worse than downward dog in a hot yoga studio with a bunch of strangers.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

Farting is not a boundary we have in our house.

It actually makes me laugh every time.

And here's where my daughters will rol their eyes, because if my daughters let one go, I'll be like, be a lady.

Quit being gross.

Nobody wants to hear that.

Well, I think it's in my gene.

Like my great grandmother used to say, better out than in.

So, like, I was never.

There's no judgment here.

We listen and we do not judge.

I'm judging.

So there was a survey that's making its way around social media again.

It found that 29% of people wait between two to six months into a relationship to fart.

I've waited 20 years.

I'm not.

That's impressive.

I'm not.

You're an endurance person.

If your husband.

Okay, so seriously, like, this is probably the difference.

If your husband.

If you're feeling all, like, cutesy about your husband, like, he's just, you know, you're like, having one of those days where you're like, you're so cute, you're hanging out, and then he just lets this nasty, smelly, gross, disgusting.

But it's funny when I do it, I just.

Do you not then not want to be with him intimately?

Like, that will sour me on him for the rest of the night.

I'm like, well, any chance you had of getting laid is gone.

I need a full 24 hours to recover from that.

It's a little dramatic, but is it?

Do I want him in that moment?

No.

But then, you know, connected to breast cancer.

Like, I'll never forget in the.

We had the two hour meeting with the surgeon about our plans, covered all the options for surgery, all that, and at the very end, my very quiet, conservative husband said, there's one question you haven't answered.

And I was like, oh, he's so thoughtful.

He's been thinking.

And he looks at the surgeon, he says, do I have to wipe her butt after surgery?

That was what it's like pressing on his mind.

Yes, that was.

He couldn't hear anything else that whole two hours.

So we bought a bidet that day because that was a boundary we weren't gonna cross.

We weren't gonna cross.

I know.

Well, you know that's why Gary and I always talk about it.

Cause, like so many of my friends, husbands watch the birth of their children, and Gary and I were very much on the same page that I wanted him nowhere near that vicinity when I was birthing life.

Like, I'm like, you don't need to see that carnage.

There's no coming back.

I don't want to.

There will be no mirrors.

There will be no faces down there other than the medical doctor.

So, yeah, like, I have a very strong boundary about that.

And I actually think your husband was very smart to say out loud where he drew the line.

Right.

So today we're gonna talk about.

Yeah, we're gonna talk about how too much medical sharing can kill the mystery in your relationship.

Or maybe it doesn't.

What too much information actually does to.

Intimacy and how couples can find their way back to each other.

If you have overshared, if you want to.

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You can participate by visiting faith through fire.org survivorship-bootcamp okay, so I have this guy who gave me, like, his situation with his wife.

I'm gonna read it to you.

Okay.

And then you're gonna tell me, like, what you think about this.

Okay.

I, I, I read this to somebody else, and they immediately vilified the man, whereas I was like, no, totally valid.

Okay.

He said, my wife and I have been together for 18 years.

We've raised kids, built a life, gone through breast cancer.

We've gone through all of it.

But somewhere between all the medical stuff and Everyday living the mystery has disappeared.

I've seen every possible version of her.

I love her, I'm not going anywhere.

But I miss wanting her the way I used to.

I miss her feeling like somebody.

I'm still trying to figure out, how do you find mystery again with someone that you've been through so much with?

And I, so when I read that to somebody, they were like, ew, he's gross and rude and, and I was just like, really?

I feel like I would feel the same way.

I, I think that is such an honest and reflective thing to say.

And I think, I think it's the million dollar question for all of us who have been through so much.

You know, I'm coming up on 20 years and I could say, I could say, I bet my husband would say something similar.

And how do we find the mystery in our spouses after all this time?

I think it's an important question to.

Consider and don't you think?

Okay, so this is obviously how we personally feel, informs our viewpoint on this.

So I was thinking about this.

I'm like, Beth, this could very well be your ADD talking.

But I'm like, I think the same old, same old.

And knowing everything about anybody is incredibly boring.

I feel stimulated when my husband still surprises me 20 years later.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it can be stupid when he orders something off the menu that I would have never guessed he'd normally order.

You know what I mean?

Like I know what his go tos are.

Right.

Or he picks out a shirt that's completely out of his comfort zone.

I'm like, who are you?

Right.

So it doesn't have to be like this huge thing.

Sure.

It's just that after 20 years we still have the ability to kind of have a little mystery about us to where not everything's figured out.

And I, I really enjoy that.

Like I need somebody that keeps me mentally stimulated.

And I feel like when you over share and you know every thought that's in their brain as they're having it, it just loses something.

Yeah.

I find comfort in knowing my person and the, the cadence and predictability of it.

And I also value mystery, newness, that sort of thing.

So I, I kind of agree with you.

And I also appreciate that I do know someone.

I've had the blessing of having that person in my life for so long, that I do know them so well.

So I can kind of go both ways with it.

I think for me it's very much like.

Cause it's not just medical, it's well, so here's a question related to breast cancer.

Like, did Dave strip your drains for you?

Yes, he did.

See, I didn't let Gary anywhere near my drains.

He pretty much did everything but wipe my butt.

I did a lot on my own.

That was the line.

Yeah, that was the line.

He was very clear about that, and I was okay with that.

I actually.

My mom helped a lot, lot with bathing.

He kind of managed the rest of our lives, our kids, everything else.

And if I needed something.

But for the most part, I tried to handle most of my own, but it wasn't because now that's not true.

If I'm being honest, I was scared to look down, and then I didn't want him to look down for a very long time.

And even being intimate, I remember I wore a shirt for a very long time after.

We're.

We're two and a half years out.

And so, yeah, you're right.

Like, there's still some things there I'm working through, for sure.

But that's more about your insecurity versus keeping mystery, right?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I'm just saying being fully vulnerable, that's something that I'm still working on.

But in that vulnerability is where the mystery is.

Right.

Like, if I'm being fully honest with who I am with my partner, there's mystery in that.

But vulnerability is hard and exhausting sometimes.

Sometimes I just want the mundane and just to rely on that, which is when you look to your point, things can get boring in relationships.

I kind of put this out to our community, and they were very.

They immediately jumped to, oh, no.

My husband was with me for every piece of the journey.

Like, we went through every single thing together.

And I think they were thinking of it more like, on the emotional front versus, like, I think of it as a very practical.

Like, you don't need to see that.

You don't need to see that gnarly incision right now.

You know what I mean?

I might let you see it when it's all healed and looks a lot better.

And maybe it's had a laser put to it.

I don't know.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

I am curious to see their reaction.

Yeah.

Like, I'm curious, though, when we started off, I first want to affirm what you said, that it's a bid for connection over shares.

Completely agree with you.

That is the.

That is the ideology of why I was an overshare.

But I'm curious, like, why you think you're a.

Keep it tight to the chest and how that plays out in your relationship with Gary.

I mean, I've always been that way.

I don't.

I mean, I.

The joke was that, you know, I was wearing, like, turtlenecks when other girls were wearing V necks.

You know what I mean?

Like, I've just always been incredibly conservative, and it's just like a comfort level that I have.

Okay.

So I don't know.

It just maybe.

I mean, maybe it's a vulnerability thing.

It feels like exposure, but it just feels.

There's just certain things that I think don't need to be shared.

Yeah.

So I just think.

Yeah, it's just.

I don't know.

You know, I've never been great about just putting myself out there full, you know, fully on display emotionally or physically.

You know, my daughter always makes fun of me because girl.

Girls these days like what they wear.

I'm like, are you serious?

Yeah.

Like, I was wearing Elbros and T shirts with sleeves.

Baggy shirts.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Like, we were part of the 90s, right?

Like, girls wore their hair and top knots and wore baggy clothes and, like, lots of mystery.

Yes.

Yeah.

You really had to uncover the mystery.

You know, there's no mystery.

You know, And I'm just always like, why do you want to hang out everything out there for everybody to see?

I've just always been like that.

I don't know.

It's ingrained.

It's really strange.

And then there's the people, and this is like, where people will get mad at me, but I'm like, then there's the people who have no problem displaying everything no matter what.

And I'm like, like, don't do that.

Yeah.

And so I guess the next question is then, like, is mystery or hiding?

You know, like, which is it when.

When you think about that spectrum.

Right.

I mean, hiding is like shame.

Like, I associate hiding with shame.

I don't feel shame.

I just feel like it's more fun when you don't know everything all the time.

Yeah.

For me, it's like a.

It's like a boredom issue more than it is about, like.

Yeah.

I think hiding speaks to shame and not feeling like you can be your authentic self and worrying if somebody's going to accept.

Accept you for who you are or how you look now.

And that seems different to me than intentionally trying to keep some parts of you private.

Both for yourself, but also just for.

For the excitement that it breeds when you meet other people and they don't know every little thing.

You've got me thinking.

I Think one of the ways that this shows up in my relationship, I get bored with being asked the same questions by my spouse and I want to say things like, ask a different question or ask a better question.

Like, if you want to have this conversation, let's make it more interesting instead of the same mold.

Are you okay?

Like, what example do you have in terms of, oh, are you okay?

Yeah.

Like, what are you actually wondering about?

Like, is it something I did or said or didn't do?

And what do you actually want to know?

Are you just checking the box?

Like, make it more.

You know what I mean?

The.

I mean, now you're asking us to rewire the male brain.

I feel like, listen, we all have our hopes and dreams.

Serious.

They're terrible about saying, like, just going deeper and actually, you know, men.

Okay.

So the caveat to it, the men could stand to overshare a little more.

Right.

I was gonna ask you, what does Gary do?

Yeah.

Is he type?

I mean, we're both, we're both pretty similar in the fact that, like, I don't want to see him poop on the toilet.

He doesn't wanna.

You know what I mean?

Like, neither one of us want to find hemorrhoid cream for the other, you know, like, it's like, you know, we're, we're both mystery.

And actually this was.

This is what came up when I brought it out to our community and asked them their thoughts, is that they.

Everybody was kind of conflicted.

And what came out of it, which I thought was so interesting and true, is that as long as you're appropriately matched with your partner, it's a non issue.

If you and your partner are both oversharers and you enjoy that intimacy that comes from that.

Not an issue if, you know, you're both not sharers like me and Gary.

Not an issue.

Where I think it becomes an issue is if one person likes more boundaries and mystery and the other person is a chronic oversharer.

I think that's where the relationship then could potentially run into some rocky waters.

And I think.

I don't know if this guy who wrote in is like saying that per se, but I could see that's where the tension is, is when you're mismatched on what you want in terms of mystery.

So Dave and I are that.

That is who we are.

He's conservative.

I'm a recovering overshare.

So it requires a lot of communication and boundary confirmation.

For sure.

I was going to say, because I had something here that said that sometimes when one person is an oversharer.

And the other person isn't that your over sharing can overwhelm them, even though they won't express it that way, they will feel overwhelmed by it, especially if they feel powerless to change it.

But then also it makes them withdraw and go inward.

And so you get the opposite effect of what you're hoping for.

So you're making a bid for connection.

They're withdrawing.

Now you feel hurt because you're sharing something intimate with them and they're not responding the way that you had hoped.

Yes.

So I think that's like the danger zone that people need to just be aware of.

Yeah, yeah.

No, that we've experienced that for sure.

And.

And isn't that interesting?

Because it's not that people don't care.

It's, again, we are a communication issue culture.

Like, we don't.

We don't take the time to understand the dynamics of our partners.

Yeah.

And what feels good to them.

And then try to operate in a way that meets both our needs.

Right.

So an example of that was when I was diagnosed.

God put on my heart to share good, bad, ugly, everything.

Everything.

And you.

You know that.

And so I was very public from the jump, and I told him.

And normally I would go to him and say, what do you think about me telling?

So.

And so this.

I would get his counsel and we'd figure out together what makes sense.

I still do that to this day, and I trust his judgment.

But I knew with, like, just a firm knowing that I wanted to share.

And my reason was very specific that I didn't.

If there was another woman struggling with what I was going through, I wanted her to know she's not going to do it alone.

And.

And there's humor in this, and there's heart in this, and there's all these things.

And he would have never, ever publicly shown, like, a medical issue like that or been as vulnerable as me.

But I think vulnerability is the bravest thing we can do.

And so I have no regrets with that.

Well, the other piece of that that I think a strong couple will appreciate is that even though it probably felt uncomfortable with him and I was the way Dave was, I didn't put it on Facebook.

I didn't tell anybody other than my immediate circle.

I just let word travel.

But I think the benefit when you have a partner that is opposite of you is that they do challenge you to be more vulnerable, which I do not think is a bad thing.

Yeah.

Because Dave didn't have to share for him to feel vulnerable in you sharing?

Yeah.

I mean, like, you sharing made him feel vulnerable 100%.

You know what I mean?

And so.

And that was your right to do that.

And he supported you in that.

And even though it probably felt uncomfortable for him, there's probably a part of him that was like admiring you for it and also just appreciated the challenge to take him to another level emotionally.

He has said that.

Yeah.

So I do think there's a harmony.

I think there's more opportunities for friction, like you said, with the dynamic we have.

But there's also this beautiful cadence and partnership in it when you figure it out.

Well, when you are strong communicators, what am I willing to like, let him lead on?

And what am I saying?

No, this is who I am and this is how I'm showing up.

And we do that dance all the time.

Even my laugh can embarrass him sometimes in public.

Like it's who I am.

Yeah.

You know how loud my laugh is.

It's like I'm a loud person.

So startle people.

So.

Yeah, I think you're bringing up such interesting dynamics.

Yeah, I kind of like diving into this and thinking, you know, what is each partner bringing to the table?

But before we do that, let's do Boobs in the News.

Boobs in the News is a fun segment where we read funny tweets by real people or ridiculous news stories.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

Are you a fashionista?

Absolutely not.

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't get.

I feel like you and I are similar in the fact that that's not.

That's not important.

You know the answer.

But I was like, well, don't assume, Beth.

You never know.

Okay, so the title of this is it turns out that no one wants a $500,000 t rex leather bag.

Can you follow that?

T Rex leather bag.

A T. Rex leather bag.

It said a handbag made of T Rex skin.

Just learned that the fashion market can be cold blooded.

The lab grown leather purse was made using 67 million year old Tyrannosaurus Rex femur found in Montana.

And they thought at this auction that it was going to fetch up to 500,000 at this Paris auction.

But it stalled out at 150 grand and they basically didn't sell it.

So what money are they using to do this research in a lab?

Like, that's not coming from our like, tax.

Oh, I'm sure.

Well, it's in Paris, so it's Paris's tax dollars.

I'm hoping Although you never can be sure that the US didn't send them money to study T. Rex purses.

So maybe we.

Maybe we funded that, but I'm going to assume that Paris funded that.

You know, like, let's make a T. Rex bag in the lab.

There's so much wrong with the story, I don't even know where to start.

First of all, I've always been highly uncomfortable with bringing anything back that's prehistoric.

I don't even like it when it's a leather bag.

I just, like, leave the dinosaurs alone.

Yeah.

Alone.

Like, yeah.

I don't.

I just feel like Jurassic park can happen, and I just feel like we're going that direction and it starts with a handbag.

So first of all, it all started with the handbag.

That's what they're going to say when we're decimating ourselves with dinosaurs.

I mean, fashion got pretty weird in the last decade or so.

Like, what people call fashion now, I don't even tune into.

And that would include a T. Rex handbag.

Like, what?

It's like modern art.

Like, half the time there's this modern art.

I'm like, okay, when are we just gonna say it's a teabag?

People like, right, right.

Look at this.

Look at this dirty tea bag.

It represents all that's wrong with the world.

How does this make you feel?

Makes me feel like I want some tea.

That's what it makes me feel like.

Yeah.

I have no patience for this.

So the fact that somebody bid $150,000, then my second thought is super judgmental.

Right.

Like, if you have that kind of money, this is how you're going to spend it.

Like, which.

You know, when you're in philanthropy, they kind of tell you, like, develop.

People who have been in development and fundraising for a long time, they're like, you really have to make sure you don't judge.

You know, there's no judgment.

Right.

About.

But I'm like, when people spend 500.

Just on the outside.

Well, that's what that's the dirty little secret right out loud, is that everybody's about non judgment.

But internally, people judge all the time.

That's right.

I mean, I'm not saying it's good.

I'm just saying it happens.

So I feel like there's a ton of boobs in this situation.

Okay, who are they?

Whoever wrote the grant or whatever to do the research.

Like, let's take this money and do this.

They're boob number one.

Boob number one.

Absolutely.

Boob number two is the Person that spends the money on said T. Rex handbag, who would you say is the boob?

The dinosaur didn't do anything.

No, it's not the dinosaur's fault.

It's not the dinosaur's fault.

I mean, I'm gonna say person who funded the research to make the bag, and then, yeah, the person that was gonna buy the bag.

And then finally, the auction house for even allowing this to be on display, supporting this.

All three.

Supporting this whole boobs.

I guess, like, if I wanted to go the other way, I could be like, okay, they're just having some fun and sparking some joy, but I don't sense what this does.

Yeah, right.

Judgment.

Judgment alert.

There's your bibs.

Bibs.

And then is bibs and the knees.

Bibs.

So you and I've kind of gone back and forth about the pluses and minuses of oversharing, but I.

When I was doing my research and we talked about where it can go wrong for breast cancer patients in particular, or any cancer patient, is when medical talk and medical symptoms and medical showing dominate your conversations.

And I have seen this happen with friends who deal with chronic illness.

Medical talk dominates their whole relationship, and it can be really detrimental.

And it's really hard because the person whose life is consumed by it is constantly bidding for connection for somebody to understand how hard this is for them, and the other person is just exhausted and needs a break from it, and it just really can.

Can hurt relationships.

So there are signs of imbalance that you want to look for.

If your partner seems overwhelmed, if they feel ignored or unimportant next to your medical problems, if important topics outside of medical decisions are neglected, if it's domineering, dominating all your conversations, it can really lead to frustration and resentment.

And as we kind of said earlier, men don't always voice that.

They'll just go silent and go internal, and there will be distance between you, and you will not know why.

Yeah, because unlike women, they don't tell you.

Have you ever told someone that they were going down this path?

Yes, I actually told my sister.

Oh.

So my sister is three years younger than me, and, you know, the ongoing joke is mom and dad built their house on a nuclear waste site because I got breast cancer, and she got.

Got deathly ill right after she had her daughter.

Now, we know with the rucka thing, no, we just lived in an area full of radiation.

Right.

So it literally was true.

Like, we literally were living in an area full of radiation.

But my sister, after she had her daughter, her health Just declined drastically to the point where she was bedridden most of the time.

I mean, there were times where I was like, we're raising their kids because my sister or her daughter.

My sister was in bed almost all the time.

She was in chronic pain.

The slightest touch to her skin was excruciating for her.

You can imagine the implications of that on her raising her daughter, on her enjoying life, on her relationship with her husband.

So my sister, like, it became her whole life because it dominated everything.

And every day was about how she was managing her pain and how she was going to just try to do this one small thing.

But it got to the point where I could not have a conversation with her unless it was about how poorly she felt in her medical stuff.

And I knew if that was happening with me, it was probably happening with her husband and everybody else she knew.

And it's a really hard conversation to have with somebody because their pain is so legitimate.

You know, their trauma is so legitimate.

But I do remember saying to her, you have to find something else to focus on in your life besides this.

I know it just takes up, up all the space because when you're in chronic pain, it's hard not to let.

It dominate the filter in which you.

But I'm like.

And she lived like this for probably a good 10 years before she started some sort of recovery.

And now she's doing pretty good.

But it dominated most of her daughter's young, young life.

And it was hard because I didn't want her feeling unsupported or not heard.

And at the same time I could see that it was, was gonna ruin her life if she let it be the sole focus of her marriage, of her parenting, of her day to day.

I was like, you have to, have to, have to find something else to take up space in your life besides these medical problems.

So it was really hard.

It sucked.

Like, would you feel comfortable telling somebody.

This with prayer and thoughtfulness?

Yes.

If they're not my inner, inner people, then I just find ways to not engage with them as much.

But if it's someone like a family member.

Yes.

Reframing, kind of.

I think that is such a delicate conversation because like you said, it's real.

You're not minimizing the realness.

But here's what you just touched on that I think is so critical for people to understand.

You said, if they're not in my inner circle, I'm going to distance myself from them.

And that's what people do.

When you have somebody and this isn't Even related to medical stuff.

This is like if you have somebody in your family who's super toxic, who is negative, who is just really hard to deal with and be around, you're not going to necessarily tell them that those things.

You're going to just slowly distance yourself from them and then they're going to notice that you're not in their life anymore.

But they're never going to have the knowledge of why.

So I think that's why it's important for people to understand the impact because most people are very conflict adverse and they're not going to tell you why they're distancing themselves.

And that goes for a spouse, but also family, friends and acquaintances.

Yeah.

And I think that comes just from protecting my own peace and stress levels.

But if it's someone that I interact with all the time, I'm gonna have to have that hard conversation.

But I don't know that I see it as my cross to bear to impart that knowledge on everyone I come across that.

Well, you know, is.

Yeah, I mean I, I did it because it was my sister and she was a major part of my life.

I definitely not gonna do that with an acquaintance.

It's just gonna be like, okay.

So there were some communication techniques that the professionals recommended.

If you find that this is.

You set time limits, agree on a specific amount of time.

For medical discussions, we talk about medical decisions first thing in the morning and then we never talk about them for the rest of the day.

Use cues, develop non verbal signals to indicate when one partner wants to shift the conversation or needs a break.

Discuss needs.

Have an open conversation about each partner's needs regarding conversation topics and balance.

And I think that at the end of the day it's about communication.

But yeah, that's, that's kind of that, that's that, that is that.

Before.

That is that.

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Okay, we're back.

What do we want to leave people with?

I feel like we covered a lot.

It's like mystery in relationships.

It's oversharing.

It's, you know, is it good?

Is it bad?

What do you think people need to take with them from this episode?

One of the things coming up for me is that can people sit with the distinction between vulnerability and hiding or shame?

Because I think you touched on something important.

I've had to figure out both in my life and separate those, because shame is a lie.

And so it's something that we have to work through.

And then vulnerability, you know, how do I want to be seen and known and how do I want to show up?

And that there's.

It's okay to have people like you that, like, choose very clearly what you want to protect and what you want to offer.

And that there's also space for people like me that see value in my bid for connection is so that other people don't ever feel alone in some of the hardships that we go through.

And I think there's space for both.

And it comes down to good communication.

Yeah, Communication is always going to be key.

You ask any therapist what the problem is in any situation.

It's going to be lack of communication.

Lack of communication.

We all lack communication skills.

And in some ways, I think it gets harder in middle age than it is when you're younger.

So, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right, until next time.

Bye.

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