S6E10: When the People You Need Most Make Cancer Harder

Welcome to the Besties With Breasties podcast.

I'm Beth Wilmes, author, speaker, and founder of a human investment organization otherwise known as a nonprofit called Faith Through Fire.

Our mission is to reduce the fear and anxiety breast cancer patients feel and replace it with hope and a path toward thriving.

I'm Jess, a mom of two, former college soccer player, elementary PE teacher, and fitness enthusiast.

I was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer just before my 40th birthday.

And I'm Jamie, researcher, retired professional boxer, and breast cancer survivor who keeps life busy and joyful with a funny farm of animals, a loving family, and a big heart to serve others.

This podcast is about our experiences with breast cancer and life after as young survivors and moms.

Good morning, Jamie.

Good morning, friend.

How are you?

I'm well today.

How are you?

Good, good.

It's early and you're all, like, jet, like, dressed up.

You look really nice.

I'm still wearing my uniform, which is my Faith Through Fire sweatshirt.

Well, the good news is nobody had to know that you just.

I outed myself.

Yeah.

I mean, I did do my.

Like, I did do my hair, and I got in the shower and stuff, so, you know, I'm halfway there.

Well, hey, props to you.

I saw a video of you last night and thought you look gorgeous.

So, you know.

You know what's so funny about that is that I got so many text messages telling, like, people saying, I love your hair like that.

And you know what my response was?

Good, because it lasts two seconds, because it's.

It's fine.

And it falls almost immediately.

So after I got that positive of a response from the community, I started, like, I spent a good portion of my night last night Googling hair products for fine hair.

You're trying.

I'm trying, man.

I just.

I just need it to last longer than, like, 30 minutes.

I feel that if I get to.

Half a day, I'm going to be so happy.

But thank you for that.

You're welcome.

Okay, so I want to kick you off.

Kick us off with a question.

What would you do if the person who's supposed to be your biggest support during cancer actually becomes one of the hardest relationships?

Who.

Honestly, I think that is one of the hardest parts of cancer that people don't talk about enough is that it doesn't just test our bodies, but it exposes our relationships.

And I think we expect that person to be our biggest supporter.

And when they become one of the hardest relationships, it feels so isolating.

And there's grief in that.

You're losing two things at Once your health and the version of a relationship you thought you could rely on.

So it's big.

Yeah.

And, I mean, I also just think how unfair it is to the person going through treatment because you don't only now have to deal with your own emotions.

You.

A lot of women feel responsible for managing somebody else's, and that is the part that I think really sucks 100%.

Yeah.

So today we're going to kind of talk about when support turns into control,.

When love shows up in ways that don't actually feel supportive, and finally, how.

To navigate that without losing yourself in the process.

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All right, we're back.

Okay, so have you seen those videos online?

I'm sure you have, where basically people write about what's going on in their lives and then the people on the couch kind of analyze it and talk it out.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

I thought that would be kind of interesting and fun to do with real scenarios that people are encountering.

So I have an anonymous situation.

I want to read it to you, and then we can kind of discuss you down.

Yep.

All right.

Quote, Since I've been diagnosed with breast cancer, my mother has become one of my biggest opponents.

We've always had a complicated relationship, and Even though I'm 36, she still tries to control me.

Our first major fight was over a wig I wanted.

I offered to buy it myself, but she, quote, wouldn't allow it.

I mentioned my Friends wanted to start a GoFundMe and she screamed at me through gritted teeth on our ride back to town.

She said it, quote, wasn't a good look.

Today she's angry that I don't allow her to set up my medication in a weekly organizer.

I've been on medication my whole life and I insist that I don't need or want this now.

She is livid with me.

If anyone told me that while fighting breast cancer I'd also be fighting with my mom, I would have never believed them.

Why is she making everything so hard?

Am I wrong?

Oof.

I mean, first of all, I don't think she's wrong, do you?

I mean, in this scenario, I can tell you what my first thought is.

What is it?

Mom's a biatch.

And you and I both know what's going on here.

Yeah, you're right.

And that's kind of the point of this episode.

Right.

Because I think when people hear this, they're going to jump to, mom's an awful person.

This girl was just raised in a horrible home, you know, and they're going to jump there, I think, because like my little black and white mind, that's where it wants to go.

But you're right, there's other things cooking under the surface.

So what do you, what do you think is happening here?

I think mom is afraid and I think she's trying to have control over things she can control because she doesn't have control that her daughter's going through this awful thing.

What do you think?

Yes, I would agree with you.

And I. I know this from firsthand experience because I am a reformed control freak.

My family would argue that I'm not reformed.

So, you know, I'm a recovering, I'm in recovery.

Recovery is active, right, Jamie?

Yes.

Yeah, ongoing.

I mean, when I was younger, I would get so angry at situations and it was all out of this fear of no control.

Yeah.

And so I can sadly recognize myself in this woman's responses, which is really hard for me to say because I don't think she comes off well.

So do you think that, like, if your daughter, if this were you and your daughter in this scenario, you'd have to work to actively stay out of fear?

Uh huh.

Yeah.

I don't know if it would manifest to this degree.

This degree?

Yeah.

When I was, you know, 12 years old and had no emotional regulation, it probably would have come out like this.

I actually see that in my son right now when he's anger and control comes out for him at really weird times.

We are like, what the heck is wrong with you?

But I've done a lot of work, you know, and grown up to some degree.

But I do think that I would want to control the situation as much as possible, and I would have to actively.

I'd probably have to get a therapist involved, quite frankly, if my kids were going through this to make sure that I was supportive and not causing them more stress.

Yeah, well, that.

That's that reflective piece of maturing.

Right.

And.

And I think that when we have so many things coming at us that we're navigating, we have to ask ourselves what.

What is about me in this scenario and what's about them and what' to own?

And this is clearly a mom issue.

Yeah.

And I wonder too, I mean, how much that I guarantee you this is not the first time that these problems have shown up in their relationship.

Yeah.

You know, like, usually we talk about this a lot in the context of marriages.

When marriages kind of fall apart after breast cancer.

It's not like breast cancer caused the marriage to fall apart.

The marriage was already in trouble.

And then breast cancer just kind of was the nail in the coffin.

And I guess, like, my first thought is that this mom has been struggling with control and lack thereof way before this happened.

So this is probably incredibly threatening to mom's sense of well being.

Yep.

You know, but this is also where it's like, tough, tough toe.

You know, tough toes, mom.

Here we are.

Let's figure this out.

Yeah.

So think about this poor girl.

You know, she's already overwhelmed physically and emotionally.

Now, you know, she's wanting somebody to take care of her.

And instead she feels like she's being attacked.

And now she's trying to manage her mom's emotions on top of her own.

Yeah, well, and I just wanna add.

I know this.

We're kind of talking about control.

My experience going through cancer was more about making sure other people were okay, which is different, but similar.

Still, things I had to navigate that weren't necessarily mine to own, but just as real, I would think, to some listeners.

Well, and I was gonna ask you about how you think you would respond if your children were going through this.

And.

And what are your family dynamics like?

Because I.

My mom would.

My mom would not be the person trying to control the situation.

She was not like that when I went through it.

But somewhere in the family genome, there's control.

There's control issues.

So, like, how do you think you'd respond with your kids?

So control has never been my go To.

And I don't know if that's because I never felt like I had it.

So I found other ways to navigate kind of the nuances of my family of origin.

More playful, more appeasing to others with bigger personalities.

And so I don't want to think about going through this with my kids, but if I did, I've done enough work on myself that I. I think that I would be able to stay actively present and kind of hide those things that are.

Are for me to process, like away from them.

Because I know the stress it brings when someone.

Someone's grief is overshadowing your experience, if that makes sense.

So are you worried because you're.

You're a fairly emotional person.

Do you feel like you would take on their suffering and you would be grief stricken and you would.

So you saying you're.

You'd have to find a way to manage your grief separate from them so that it doesn't become a burden to them?

Yeah, because I think I'm a very playful person in nature and my kids would pick up on that stress if that's not how I was showing up.

And so I would have to find a way to process my own because my fear translates, like you said, into emotion, like grief versus control.

And so, yeah, I would have to find ways to not put that burden on them.

I'm thinking back to my parents reactions when I went through cancer, and I'd say if they had a quote, unquote negative reaction in any way, it was this sense of avoidance, which I think is really common.

You know, when people are fearful, it's like that's kind of one of the fear responses.

Right.

Is to avoid.

So it's kind of hard to avoid when your daughter's standing in your kitchen bald.

Right.

But there were instances where I could tell they were actively trying to avoid confronting what was happening in the moment.

And that was all about their fear response, which can feel very isolating because you want to be going through this with somebody to a large degree.

When you're going through breast cancer, nobody can really go through it with you unless you.

They've been there themselves.

Yeah.

So I think that's kind of an interesting part.

I want to talk a little bit about the concern about image or perception, like the GoFundMe thing, because I think that's a hot button topic for a lot of people.

But before we do that, you want to do boobs in the news.

I can't wait.

All right, let's do it.

Boobs in the news is a Fun segment where we read funny tweets by real people or ridiculous news stories.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

All right, the name of this one is Woman Sues Carnival Cruise for serving her 14 shots of tequila.

I saw this.

And she wins a $300,000 judgment.

I have feelings.

She fell.

Right?

Like she fell.

Uh huh.

I have feelings about this.

I bet you do.

Tell me.

Well, okay, so a Miami federal jury ordered Carnival to pay $300,000 to a California woman after the cruise line served her at least 14 shots of tequila in eight and a half hours.

And this woman, I won't name her just out of respect, but she's a nurse.

Okay.

Okay.

She suffered a fall between like 11:45 and 12:20am and sustained a concussion, a possible traumatic brain injury, back injuries and tailbone injuries.

So the jury found Carnival 60% at fault and the woman 40%.

And there's so much here.

So first of all, you're a nurse, right?

Yeah.

Do you maybe think you should have the logic that you shouldn't take 14 tequila shots as a grown woman?

Maybe.

Yeah.

I mean, there's like logic and then there's like what the law says that protects idiot choices.

And we're somewhere in that, in that gray space for sure.

But I think you and I are going to land on the same side of this.

Okay, well, there's, there's kind of an interesting nuance here that I want to, I want to talk to.

So Carnival's legal defense was kind of like they basically argued that she failed to identify any crew member who overserved her or what bar she consumed it at.

And I'm wondering, okay, so these cruise ships, I've never, full disclosure, been on a cruise, but they look very, they look very large and it looks like there's multiple bars.

So let's just say you get two shots from one bar and then you go to another bar table and you get another two shots.

And then maybe you sit at a table with a waitress and you're not at the bar at all and she gives you another one and, and you can't identify who served you.

It's not like they couldn't say.

There's this one guy and he gave me all 14 shots at this bar between these hours.

You don't think there's like cameras at this?

Yeah, you know.

Yeah, well, that's a good point too.

I'm kind of questioning like if she can't point to who served her all those and they can't locate, you know, that it all came from one shot.

I don't know that they're 100%.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, you know, I don't know that they did say that there was a lack of evidence, that she was stumbling, sleeping at the bar, slurring her words, or exhibiting any other intoxicated, like, behaviors.

14 Shots in.

Yeah, I mean, I can tell you.

I would be coma after two.

Yep.

I'd be comatose.

I'd be sleeping.

I don't know.

I mean, you know, so I usually.

These kind of things don't go to court.

They usually get settled out of court for some reason.

This one went to court.

But I am conflicted on who the boob is here.

I'm leaning toward the woman.

I. I think the woman and the law on this are boobs.

I mean, Jamie's going lawful.

No, I think what I mean is it's ridiculous that she won money for over.

I don't know.

I'm with you.

I think.

Yeah.

I think she's the.

Okay, so here's the other thing.

I feel differently about it if she was at a bar on a street where she potentially could get into a vehicle and kill herself or kill somebod else.

You're on a cruise ship.

You're not going anywhere.

Yeah.

You're not.

You're not driving anybody.

You know, really, the.

The cruise ship should be doing it to protect their liability in case she gets alcohol poisoning and dies on the ship.

But.

Yeah, but I'm like, you're not driving anybody.

You know, you're just going to be a hot mess express, which, you know, whatever.

So anyway, I. I said the ladies, the boob.

You're too kind of.

Yeah.

All right.

There's your bibs.

Bibs.

And then is bibs and the kniz.

Bibs and the knives.

Okay, we're back.

I want to talk about the GoFundMe thing, because I don't know if you have feelings on this, but people have incredibly strong feelings about whether or not people should do gofundmes when they get a major diagnosis or a major tragedy.

And I don't want to weigh in on that one way or the other.

I.

Well, I will weigh in in this regard.

I have Nothing against a GoFundMe if the funds are needed.

I have seen gofundmes where people are funding lifestyle choices that are not related to a crisis or, you know, something, and I don't care for that.

I think that's in bad taste, But I don't have a problem with gofundme.

You know, for cancer diagnosis or anything like that or any other serious issue that comes up for families, whatnot.

I would be curious your.

Your feelings about this, but I think when the mom was saying it was a bad look and she didn't want other people to see this again, I think that goes back to kind of this thought process of needing help equals weakness and embarrassment and vulnerability and what will people think?

Or even potentially like, I'm not taking care of my daughter properly because she has to ask people for money.

So.

Interesting, don't you think?

I mean, I. I hear you.

I don't think that was my first thought, but I. I can definitely see well.

What was your first thought?

I.

Well, I don't know.

You just.

We just discussed this scenario, and I'm still thinking about.

You're processing in real time.

I'm a. I'm a slow processor.

That's interesting, though.

I. I guess I can't relate to mom.

Like, I wouldn't argue over a wig if that's what my daughter wanted to do.

And it made her happy and comfortable.

Like, I can't.

It's unrelatable.

So I'm still processing mom in this situation.

But that's interesting that you think.

I do see a correlation with weakness.

I think I'm going to be honest.

I had a friend set up a GoFundMe without me knowing.

For you, for me, when I was.

And I. I felt shame.

I. I felt that I. I don't want to take people's money.

What I learned from it.

And I. I don't know if we're going to get into this or not, but that people don't always know how to show up.

And giving money is a way that feels like they're contributing without also being vulnerable in their discomfort.

I agree.

Yeah, totally.

And you know what?

Secret GoFundMe are my favorite kind.

I will welcome a secret GoFundMe where I didn't have anything to do with it.

With you.

If somebody set one up, I would be worried that people thought I set it up.

Yeah, I. I did.

I had to go through all that processing.

It was hard for me.

But you and I both come from families and.

And let me know if I'm speaking out of turn about your family, but we both come from families, or at least I do, where it's like, hey, you put your big girl pants on, life hands you lemons, you make lemonade.

Nobody's going to save you in this life.

You're responsible for you and that vulnerability piece of saying, I don't have this.

I'm worried I need help is like, oh, my gosh.

It just makes me, like, want to vomit, honestly.

Yep, That's.

That's my.

Yeah, my family of origin to very scrubby Dutch.

Like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, get to work.

Life's going to throw you blows.

You keep standing up.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

There is.

There is a lot of ingrained from family shame around needing help or looking weak.

I noticed that with my mom.

My mom's very, you know, when she's going through something hard, she keeps it very close and she doesn't share it with people.

And I think that's just a fear of vulnerability.

You know, I also, like.

I think as women, we're.

We're not, you know, don't take up space, don't.

Don't show weakness.

Like, you handle your business.

I think there's a lot of dynamics in that, for sure.

Like, I think about.

I had a dear friend, childhood friend, who came to me about a year ago, and she was really sick and needed a kidney.

And she was trying to project, manage her way out of it, but she hadn't told the soul that she was close to dialysis or needing a transplant.

And I said, I'd like to write about this.

I don't know what God will do with it, but, like, could I publicly post your story and your need?

And.

And she said, yes.

And I sat on it for a little while.

It ended up getting shared over 170 times.

And the person that she worked closest with was the one that stepped forward and gave her a kidney.

And it was such a profound lesson in that, like, sometimes we really do have to set aside the shame and the perceived weakness and just allow people to step up in different ways.

And God can bless that.

You know, it's interesting that you say that.

And I am not going to recall the freaking book to save my life because I have a baby brain.

But I'm reading this book on prayer right now.

And because my prayer life is just like, sometimes I'm on the struggle bus with it, you know, it's just hard.

And this book, I just kind of pick it up every once in a while when I'm drinking my morning coffee.

And so I picked it up this morning, and there's a whole little paragraph, and it was just one paragraph, and I got so much nuggets out of it.

But it was about how often people approach Jesus.

And Jesus's first question to them is, what do you want?

And just vocalizing what you want to somebody or what you need from them is so hard.

And he repeatedly asks people, what do you want from me?

What are you hoping I'll do for you?

And I just.

And the whole point of that book was like, you need to go to your father and tell him what you want and you need.

He knows it, but just verbalize it.

And it's like, that just hit me funny, because I'm like, ooh, that feels vulnerable even to God.

Right.

Who already knows.

But I think that this girl, if I had to guess, the fear was, I'm gonna tell people I need a kidney, and nobody's gonna respond.

Yep, that's exactly what it was.

And it's gonna feel like rejection.

And I actually.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And I actually went through something very similar with my therapist.

There you go.

There's a plug for my therapist.

And it comes from, like you said, being from these families where it's like, you don't ask for help.

And she asked me to recall a time where I asked somebody for help.

And I.

Because I mentioned that when I asked for help, I feel a lot of shame.

And she's like, can you tell me the last time that you asked for help where you felt shame?

And it was so funny.

I met a dear friend who I have always really admired and respected, and she's been nothing but awesome to me.

And we met for coffee, and we were talking about Faith Through Fire, and she was just really complimentary, and she's like, how can I help you?

And I said, oh, you know, just.

Just keep being you, you know?

I said, yeah, I minimized it because that's my first go to is to say, oh, you know, just thanks so much for meeting with me and talking about this with me.

Like, I don't need anything from you.

And then after I left, I. I remember, I go, beth, you always do that.

People.

People ask, how can you can they help?

And you always minimize it and tell them that they can't.

And so I texted her.

I said, it was so great seeing you.

I said, actually, I said, I would really love it if you could help me recruit for my team for the 5k.

I said that we do every year in Nove.

Said, because I get busy doing other things for Faith Through Fire, and it kind of gets put to the back, and I would love your help with that.

And she responded, right.

And immediately after she responded, I felt shame and embarrassed and like, oh, I, I. I put her out, and she doesn't really want to help me with this.

And the Therapist said, will you pull up the text message of her, of her response?

Let's do a little reality therapy and read it to me.

Right?

She goes, will you read it to me?

So I pulled.

It was literally like, oh, yeah, I'd love to.

I love, you know, I love attending the event.

I'm super happy to help you with this.

When we get closer, let's touch base.

There was nothing in it that at all hinted that she wasn't interested in helping me.

But in my mind, when I read her response, I thought there was something there that indicated that she didn't want to actually help and that I now have embarrassed myself.

And it was such a pivotal moment for me in therapy to be like, like, whoa.

Yep.

Yeah, that filter out.

That's crazy, right?

What your mind tells you when nobody said anything of the sort.

And so I totally relate to this girl with the kidney because that is so life altering.

Right.

Like this girl needs a life saving organ.

Right.

And she was willing to quiet control.

Yep, yep.

That is profound.

Wild.

All right, so let's talk about how to navigate these situations.

Like when you're up against this.

I feel like we, we went into lots of different things, but how do you navigate these difficult dynamics without losing yourself?

So I love this question.

I actually, a dear friend gave me a necklace early on in my cancer journey.

And it's a.

It's a pause button.

And it was a reminder to protect my peace.

So instead of trying to catch them up, get them to understand, hear them better, I just had to be clear that, like, this isn't serving me.

This energy is kind of feels wasted and I'm just gonna protect my peace.

That's one strategy.

So, like stop over explaining, over acquiescing, and just like, it is what it is.

And right now I'm choosing not to pick that up.

What about you?

That.

Well, what you just said speaks to what you said before, which is as women, we tend to try to quiet ourselves instead of saying what we need.

And like you said, creating a clear boundary.

Yeah, but I think what you just touched upon, and I want women to hear this clearly, is because I do this.

It's like I keep trying to get somebody to understand my point of view.

Who might not want to.

Well, why, why am I trying?

I'm sitting there taking on the mental load of trying to figure out how to explain it better to where they really understand.

And it's like, that's not, that's not helpful.

No, they might not ever get it.

You're wasting your Mental load trying to get them to understand something that they may not be equipped to understand.

So I agree with you.

I think, you know, you, you figure out how to protect your piece.

You put a boundary in place which women struggle with so much.

Right.

Yeah.

I think another thing, and this, this happened with trying to decide what to share based on who listens to this in my.

Oh, yeah, I do that all the time.

I decided most of my most.

Anybody I know isn't listening to this.

So I've just shown.

So there's this, this concept of, like, separating someone's intentions from that, the impact or the outcome.

And so I, I'll never forget, like, I have, I have two brothers, and I had a year and a half of treatment that was for a season.

It was weekly.

And every time, it was kind of an open invitation if someone wanted to come sit with me, because they were pretty long days.

But there was no pressure, you know, like, there were times I didn't want anyone.

I wanted to sleep or read a book or just be by myself.

And I'll never forget, like, about a year into it, I posted a picture of my, my older brother at treatment with me.

And that night, because I would always write a little story about the person who was visiting with me.

And my younger brother text me.

And he said, he sent a screenshot.

He said, are you trying to make me feel guilty?

Oh.

And I said, that sounds like a you problem.

Right.

So it was this idea that, like, he was well intended to support me, but his life was busy and yet he didn't show up.

Both can be true.

And I can decide how much that affects me, you know, like, your intention can be one thing, but your behavior is doing something different.

And I get to decide how much that disrupts my peace, my flow.

So it's something interesting to think about.

You're funny because you, I don't know how you handle.

I mean, did you literally say to him, that sounds like a you problem?

Are you so proud of me?

I actually did.

I, I, I am, I am shocked and incredibly proud of you, because that's exactly what I would have done.

I would have been like, sounds like you're feeling guilty.

Maybe you need to reevaluate your life choices.

I wasn't that direct, but I was direct for me.

I mean, it was a year and a half into this bs, so I.

Was, yeah, your threshold had been met.

Yeah.

You're like, I ain't doing that well.

You know, we all have those family members who are.

And I'm not Dogging on your brother.

But it's like, you know, men in general just tend to be more self focused.

They're not, they're not great about, they're not necessarily the most natural when it comes to empathy.

Right.

Or showing up for somebody else because it's good for the other person and even if it inconveniences them.

Like, I'm not a man hater, but I've just noticed it with my son.

Now, granted, he's a very immature 16 year old, but it's like, dude, can you think of somebody else ever?

You know?

Right.

But I'm proud of you.

That's awesome that you, you know, that you put that in place and then, and then how did he respond to that?

He came to the next treatment.

There you go.

And we had a great time.

And you know what?

I guarantee you, like, was there a moment where you felt a little bit like, oh, he doesn't really want to be here, or did you not let that even creep in your mind?

I didn't even, Beth.

He was, he was like, his eyes were wide.

He didn't know what cold caps were.

And so when he asked me why people, he said, helmets.

I said, it's for safety.

And he believed me.

I mean, we.

Oh, that's hilarious.

I was having with them.

Yeah.

And then they were wearing gloves and he had all these questions and I was just messing with him.

So I had a good old time.

That's hilarious.

That's amazing.

So, you know, you have to separate intention from impact, right?

They, yeah, these people mean well.

This woman, this, this mom, she means well.

The, the, the daughter went on to say that down the road, mom came back around and basically was like, you know, encouraging her to get the wig she wanted and, you know, basically said, I think what happened, if I had to guess, was that mom had a moment to emotionally regulate and realize that she was kind of the villain in this story and then she tried to correct it.

Yeah.

And I think for a lot of people, when people do try to fix it after they've already hurt somebody, sometimes you want to just be like, I need you to figure this shit out before you hurt me, not after, because it's already, the damage has been done.

But I do, I do suggest that we need to have a little more grace for people and understand that there's usually a lot of psychological work that has not been done.

And so the crisis brings out the worst in them.

Right.

But people, people usually intend to love you well and to want to be there for you.

And there I know this from my personal experience with not managing my emotions well when I was younger.

There's regret there.

I always felt regretful when I handled something poorly.

And I see it with my son.

When my son handles a situation poorly, he always regrets it later.

And I know that nobody's beating him up more than himself.

So I think that we need to, like, think about, you know, the other side of the coin.

Yeah.

And I, I, I keep thinking about what you said about go to the father and say what you need and want to have happen and what that would look like for that daughter to do that to her mom in a very clear and succinct way.

And I always tell my kids, you know, once you've done that, let people show you who they are, and if they continue to show up in a way that is not healthy, that's data.

And then you can make a different choice.

But there is that grace period that I think we all need, because we've all had stuff we're all trying to put in the work, and it's a dance.

It is a dance.

So before we kind of wrap up, let's hear from our second sponsor.

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All right, we're back.

I think final words, right?

That fear often shows up as controlling.

Yeah, yeah, we talked a little bit about that.

Diagnosis doesn't fix relationship dynamics.

It can magnify them.

It can kind of put them on front street.

Right.

And, and, you know, really just setting boundaries during cancer is not selfish.

It's really essential.

You know, you gotta protect your energy, your boundaries, like you said.

So if this is you guys listening, I don't know you guys, does that make sense?

What am I saying?

If this is you, if you're listening to this and this feels like it's resonating with you, we hope this helped you.

Yeah.

All right, guys, until next time.

See ya.

Thank you for being a listener of the Besties with Breasties podcast.

If this podcast had a positive impact on your journey, leave us a review or consider becoming a supporter.

You can donate with the link in the show notes or@faiththroughfire.org.

Sam.