S6E16: Cancer Changes Everything—So What Do You Believe?

Welcome to the Besties with Breasties podcast.

I'm Beth Wilmes, author, speaker, and founder of a human investment organization otherwise known as a nonprofit called Faith Through Fire.

Our mission is to reduce the fear.

And anxiety breast cancer patients feel and replace it with hope and a path toward thriving.

I'm Jess, a mom of two, former college soccer player, elementary PE teacher, and fitness enthusiast.

I was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer just before my 40th birthday.

And I'm Jamie, researcher, retired professional boxer, and breast cancer survivor who keeps life busy and joyful with a funny farm of animals, a loving family, and a big heart to serve others.

This podcast is about our experiences with.

Breast cancer and life after as young survivors and moms.

Okay, my friend.

How are you doing, Jamie?

Good.

How are you?

I'm good.

You?

You look frozen on my side.

Are you good on your side?

I'm here.

I'm here.

Okay.

Okay.

Just making sure.

I'm like, I'm gonna have to do a check every once in a while because you are frozen, and I'm like, I'm gonna be talking and not even.

Know if you're there.

I mean, it's beautiful outside.

I don't know why I lost power.

Yeah, I know.

It's so weird that you don't have power right now, but we're gonna just power.

Power through.

Ha ha ha.

Mom.

Power through, baby.

Let's go.

Let's do it.

Let's do it.

You know what?

Maybe it's because we're talking about faith, right?

Like, don't just get a Satan.

Yeah, right.

Like, okay, Satan, you know?

Okay, so that opens up a very important question, Jamie.

For people who are very ambivalent or agnostic about faith, they would say that that's crazy talk.

Like, how many people do you know that know how devout you are and how important faith is to you that think you're batshit crazy?

Do you have a lot of those people?

I do.

I have a lot of those people.

If I do, they haven't told me.

So you don't suspect.

You don't get the, like, Spidey sense that they think you're a little nutty?

I mean, it's not.

Not an echo chamber, but I'm pretty out there with my faith.

And so you attract other Christians?

Yeah, Yeah, I think that's what I'm trying to say.

And.

Or they're wolves in sheep's clothing.

And like you said, my discernment will kick in eventually.

But people think you're batshit crazy.

I mean, some do.

You Have.

I mean, I have family members who don't believe.

So family members for sure think I'm crazy.

Yeah, I. I mean, like, I have some non believers, but I wouldn't say they think I'm crazy.

They just respectfully disagree with my viewpoint, my worldview.

Yeah.

Well, okay, so there's a difference too, because when I say people think you're crazy, they don't necessarily think you're crazy for your belief in Jesus.

That doesn't necessarily freak them out.

I think what freaks them out is when you start talking like, oh, I heard from God and he told me this, or ah, that kind of thing, where all of a sudden now you're claiming to hear from God or you're making decisions based on the Holy Spirit.

That freaks people out.

And that's when they.

That's when they start thinking, oh, she's a little bit crazy.

And so that's kind of.

I was like, let's just jump in and talk about it.

Now you and I are going to talk about it from the viewpoint of Christianity because that's what we know and that's the world's biggest religion.

So I think it only makes sense to talk about what we know, but we're going to talk about Christianity as a relationship and not just a religion.

Why Jesus is so polarizing.

Yep.

And how the search for meaning is causing spiritual curiosity, which I love to see.

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So again, you and I are focusing on Christianity because we're both pretty devout Christians who believe firmly that Jesus is the way to peace both in this world and in the next.

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding around Christianity.

Do you think so?

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think a lot of that misunderstanding is informed by people's personal experiences.

And I think a lot of people assume Christianity is about rules or church attendance or morality even.

But I think most Christians would say that all that is very secondary to a relationship with Jesus and God.

Yeah.

Less performative.

Yep.

Yeah, it's not performative.

Right.

Like, and I think a lot of people think that faith is performative only and hypocritical, and they don't get the relational component.

Right.

Or that there's.

There are behaviors, there will things that you can do to.

To get a spot in heaven, like go to church.

And.

And.

And it's.

It's.

It's about that relationship with Christ first and foremost and foundationally.

Yeah.

I hear a lot of people say, I hope I did enough to get into heaven.

And every time I hear that, I'm like, well, you didn't.

Nobody did.

You know that we're human.

We're both.

Well, I mean, we.

No, yeah.

No.

Nobody has done enough to get into heaven.

Which is the whole reason that the sacrifice of Jesus was necessary.

Right.

That that was why it was made, was because there's nothing you can do to earn your way into heaven.

It required that.

And so I think that's a foreign concept to a lot of people.

But going back to the whole, oh, my gosh, you're a little bit crazy.

We don't just believe about Jesus.

We believe we actually know Him.

Like, for me, when I think of him, he is my best friend.

He is the one constant.

He is the person that never disappoints me.

He's the person that I know, even when times are tough, that there's a greater meaning behind it and I can trust him.

Like, that's how I feel about him.

Like, how does that show up in your life?

Yeah, like that.

It is a person that I seek to engage with and request to hear from.

It's a conversation, you know, it's that.

It's that bid for connection with the ultimate person we want to do life with.

For sure.

But see, I think that's the part that throws people, because for you and I, Jesus is alive today, right?

Yeah.

And for most people, he's a historical figure who made certain claims that people, you know, may or may not believe.

And it's like that's the key differentiator.

And I think that's where omnipresent, right?

He, he is here.

He's omniscient, he's omnipresent, he surpasses all things, but he's also among us, which is super comforting to, to believers at least.

Well, I'll tell you, this was a game changer for my husband and his faith walk because he was sitting in church and the pastor was talking about, you know, we've got heaven where it's perfection and it's all we know is God.

There's hell where there's no God doesn't is not there, right?

It's separation from God.

It's nothing but misery and, and torment forever, for eternity.

And then there's earth.

And with earth, every good thing that exists on earth today is because God's presence is still among us, right?

And so you have both evil that exists on earth, but you also have God's goodness that still exists on this earth.

And so it's the only place, right, where both good and evil are still here.

But Gary said it really changed his perspective because he wasn't giving glory to God or credit to God for every good thing on earth.

And he for some reason there was just a click there, right, like that, that his presence is still among us.

That's what's interesting is that if you ask anyone, do you think evil exists in this world, in this, this, in between heaven and hell, can you discern that there's evil in this world?

Most people would say yes, right?

Bad things happen all the time, but not everyone can say where goodness and light come from.

And so I think it's a really important thing to think about or challenge our thinking in the, the, the existence of evil.

But there's also the existence of good.

And what is the source of that and what people might say?

I don't think a lot of people give it a lot of thought.

And you know, you think about it especially in the context of when you give in a life altering medical diagnosis, is there any question that's more important than what is the meaning of life?

What happens after we die?

Does anything matter more than that when you're handed this life altering diagnosis?

I'm shocked when people don't ask those questions, especially when handed something so heavy.

When you're looking death in the face.

I just watched the Case for Christ with, you know, Lee Strobel on, on Netflix the other night because I just love his story because he was A reporter, and he was very atheistic and his wife found faith and he freaked out because he didn't like the dynamic change in their marriage.

And so basically he went out to prove that God doesn't exist.

And then he came to faith through that information, because I've always said, and I've always liked this saying, that it takes more faith to not believe in God than it does to believe in God.

I think there's an abundance of evidence, but it all hinges on Jesus and the resurrection.

And you actually have to take the time to research it to come to that conclusion.

So I want to talk about why we think Jesus is so polarizing.

And I. I think it's because he's not wishy washy.

He demands a response.

It's like he claimed to be God.

He claimed to be the only way to have relationship with God.

So in my mind, you either think that he is a complete lunatic and a liar or he is truly God.

Yeah, there.

There's no in between there.

So I always find it fascinating when people try to say, oh, well, he was just a good man, or he was just.

It's like, that's not what he said.

So, you know, I think he's polarizing because it's very black and white.

And he basically says, make a decision and then stick with it.

What do you think?

I agree with you that he's polarizing.

And I think it's because as humans, we want to have choice and ownership and gray areas to make decisions in our life.

And he's pretty black and white about what is right and what is wrong.

So interestingly enough, I had a conversation with a family member who doesn't believe.

And we had had quite a few cocktails and it was such a fun conversation.

Cause he doesn't get all, like, weird about it.

Like some people.

Some people get really angry and like, hostile, and it's like they're not fun to talk to.

Yeah.

But it's like he's just very chill and just like we had this fun conversation, but at the end of the night I was like, you know what it sounds like to me?

You just don't like the idea of somebody being in charge of you and telling you what to do.

And he's like, that's 100% it.

And I think that's what falls into what you're saying, which is that we want the autonomy, right, to make the decisions that feel good to us.

And we don't like that accountability piece that somebody else is calling the shots.

And I think so whenever I talk to somebody who's grappling with their faith, I'm like, I get it.

Nobody likes to be the.

It's a child parent relationship, right?

The parents in charge, they're going to tell you how to have a good life.

If you don't do it, you know, you don't have to do it, but they're kind of calling the shots.

And people hate that.

They hate it.

And what's interesting is that if you pursue the relationship and not the performative things, corporate worship, prayer, all of those things, if you focus on your relationship, it's actually about changing your heart posture to be more like his, which in turn makes those boundaries more clear.

Right?

But when we're out of relationship with God, it feels authoritative.

Yeah, that's a good point.

I always tell people, I'm like, you're focusing on the wrong things, right?

People get very wrapped up in, like you said, the performance or the hypocrisy of church members or the politics of everything.

And I'm like, listen, all that stuff is a.

Is distraction designed by the enemy to keep.

It's.

It's noise, but it's intentional noise that the enemy uses to take your eyes off of Jesus.

And if you work all your time, you don't think about any of those things.

And you work all your time at getting to know Jesus, he tells over and over again in the Bible, if you knock, I will answer.

There's no way that if you seek him, you will not find him.

The thing is, most people, most people are too scared to seek him.

And I had that experience, like my whole come to faith moment where I consider myself, I always believed in God, but I didn't have a relationship with God.

So that was the distinction.

But that moment for me was when I had my first child.

And I was like, there has to be more to this, right?

But when I was grappling with that and I started going to this church and I was really grappling with my faith and what I wanted for him, and what do I actually believe.

There was a moment where I was like, if I embrace Jesus, if I go down this path and I fully commit myself to him, my life is gonna be harder like this.

I'm gonna have to potentially change and not do what I wanna do.

I have to, like, defer to what he wants me to do.

And I really was like, ugh.

Like, that's really hard to do.

And it's that moment of surrender where the miracles happen, right?

So I eventually was like, all right, it's worth the risk.

I can't keep carrying this burden by myself.

I don't want this burden.

I'm gonna lay it at your feet, let you handle my life, because you can do it better.

And I'll tell you what, man, that.

That radically changed me in an instant.

And my whole life just went into, like, Technicolor, and it's been an adventure ever since.

But you try to explain that to somebody who hasn't experienced it, and they just think you're nuts.

Yeah,.

They do.

They think you're absolutely crazy.

And it kind of goes into that whole baptism, you know, it's like the rebirth, right?

You.

Jesus says you need to be born again.

And that really stumped his disciples.

They're like, you can't be born again.

But he's saying no.

When you choose to let God direct your life, that is your choice to be born again.

And that is when everything changes.

Well, in a huge distinction, there is free will.

Our God is so loving.

That is not a.

It is not a forced thing.

We have free will, and it is relational with him.

And that, I think, we often think.

Well, the crazy thing to me is that, like, people don't think he already knows everything about us.

Every dark secret, every corner, every crooked nanny, and loves us anyway, and there's nothing we can do that will falter that love.

But we have to be in relationship with him.

Well, I think people.

I think that scares people because most people have not known that level of unconditional love.

And one of the things I really liked in the Search for Christ, or the.

I forget what it was called the Lee Strobel movie, was that he went and consulted with a psychologist, and she was saying that most people who struggle with accepting God as their father had a father wound.

And so they don't know what it's like to be loved unconditionally and supported unconditionally and to know that somebody's there for them no matter what, and that scares them.

And I think that's so profound, you know, and it's why so many people struggle with accepting God as their father, because they do have those father wounds, and they've never felt that level of acceptance before.

So it's so foreign to them.

Yeah, that's powerful.

I want to talk kind of about the, you know, spiritual curiosity that's happening in the world today, because I find it really uplifting and encouraging.

But before we do that, you want to do boobs in the news?

Let's go.

All right.

Boobs in the News is a fun segment where we read funny tweets by real people or ridiculous news stories.

Boobs in the news, fibs in the news, bibs and is.

All right, you ready for this?

Yep.

Let's do it.

Nicks and six is what it's called.

New York Man's high school yearbook prediction six years ago goes viral.

So basically, this guy Evan called it six years ago and has the receipts to prove it.

So, you know, like, when you.

You're graduating high school, they allow you to, like, write a saying or a quote or just kind of, like, tout your accomplishments in the yearbook.

Do you remember doing that?

So basically, like, he decided to use his space to say, Knicks in 6, 20, 26, NBA Finals.

And at that time, I guess the Knicks really sucked.

But apparently now they're in the finals, which I don't follow.

They are?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're a big sports family, like Jess is.

But it's like, I didn't.

I was like, oh, I guess they're in the finals.

But he predicted this six years ago in his yearbook.

So he has his yearbook to prove that.

He forecasted that this is where they would be today, which I thought was super interesting.

That's wild.

He said, I was at a good buddy's house.

And I said, Nick's 6, 20, 26.

It rhymes so well that I figured, all right, I'm going to put it in the yearbook.

He's like, I could have said, Nick's 5 and 25, or Nick 7 and 27, but he's like, I got the right year.

And it said he took some grief, particularly from his parents, for not using the yearbook space to spotlight his school achievements because, like, he was an honor society, and that's what he decided to use his time on.

But here's the funny thing, okay?

The reason I picked this story was because we were told as a high school class put a quote in there that you want to be remembered by, right?

And I, at the time in high school, me and my friends, I mean, you know.

You know how stupid you are.

Like, you're just so dumb.

So everybody is, like, writing these really profound quotes that they want to be remembered for.

And I remember just not taking it seriously at all.

I distinctly remember just goofing off in the class and.

And I was running out of time, and I was talking with my friends, and I could have cared less about my quote.

And there was a poster on the wall in the classroom for math that said, rise over Run.

Math is fun.

That is my Freaking quote in my yearbook.

That is what I ended up writing down.

That is what I will be.

How.

How dumb is that?

How dumb is that I am?

So.

That's exactly right.

I mean, I didn't either.

And I was like, that's how immature my brain was.

I was like, you know, you're going to be known forever as Rise over Run Girl.

They're going to think you loved math.

They're going to think you were a total nerd.

I'm like, this is ridiculous.

So, yeah, in this story, I am 100%.

You're the boob.

The boob.

I'm the boob.

But good for Evan for predicting the Knicks in the NBA finals.

That's pretty cool.

So fun.

All right.

There's your boobs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

So my impression.

Jamie, we're back.

My impression has been that Christianity has been on the decline.

Like, you kind of see it being, you know, something that's not cool.

Right.

And it feels like less and less people affiliate.

And in fact, young people in our country in particular are way less affiliated with faith.

I think it used to be 65.

Now it's down to 45.

So my understanding was that it was on the decline.

There's more than 2 billion people who identify as Christian.

But globally, Christianity is growing and exploding, which I think is so interesting.

So in the US we're kind of shrinking back.

Although young people are showing that they're more spiritually curious than before.

They're not really following in their parents footsteps.

They're looking for deeper meaning.

Yeah, but do you know where Christianity is the biggest right now?

Where?

Africa.

And think about that.

There's so much persecution there.

Yeah.

Gary and I were just talking about it this morning, and I was like, well, of course that's where God's showing up and people are coming to faith because I'm like, he shows up in the trenches.

Right.

And in the persecution and in the suffering is where he does his best work.

And so it didn't surprise me at all.

It makes me sad for America.

But, you know, but there is.

I.

Go ahead.

My experience is different than, like, if you wouldn't have given me those stats about the US I would say that there is an uprising in younger generations.

I'm seeing it locally.

My.

Both of my kids, my daughter baptized this weekend.

My son was baptized last year.

Their summer camp, their church summer camp, like, exploded.

There's been hundreds of more kids going.

So I think that's Interesting because I wouldn't have guessed that about the U.S.

Well, but don't you think that's because you and Dave have set that example for them?

Because that would be the argument.

Right.

If you raise your kids to be Christian, it makes sense that they would potentially gravitate toward it.

Sure.

Like I think their peers, more and more peers are joining is the thing that I'm.

Well, there is, there has been a resurgence, like if you follow like some of the revivals that are happening in these, like college campuses or at these churches, it's pretty insane.

I do think they do.

When I did some research on this, it did say that younger generations, while very skeptical of institutions, which makes perfect sense.

Right.

Because a lot of people have church hurt and are like, it's a business.

They have a lot of skepticism about institutions, but they're showing renewed interest in spirituality, purpose and specifically the teachings of Jesus.

And I think it's because these kids today have higher levels of anxiety than ever before.

They know it doesn't feel good, their parents don't believe.

So they've never been given an example of somebody that they can count on through Jesus.

Like, you know, we tell our kids all the time, like, he's your best friend, he's your go to guy, he's the one that knows everything.

Like he's better than your dad and I, he comes first.

But these kids who are searching don't have that right.

They don't have that example.

They have the anxiety.

They live in this chaotic world.

And I think it makes sense that they're looking for some purpose and meaning.

You know, it's always good to question, like I welcome anybody to the question.

If you're doubting, if you don't know, if you're just kind of like ambivalent about faith.

I mean, I'm totally for you, man.

I get it.

I went through that struggle.

Everybody's faith journey is their own.

I.

And you can't force it.

But I'm telling you it is worth exploring because it will just change your life, your perspective, your suffering.

Oh my gosh, you know, just.

Amen.

Just in the way that it's helped me suffer better is just by itself worth profound.

Worth its weight in gold.

Yeah, profound.

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All right, we're back.

What are your final words for the people?

Keep asking the hard questions.

Keep listening to your gut.

Keep seeking and you will find him.

All right, until next time, see ya.

Thank you for being a listener of.

The Besties with Breasties podcast.

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