S6E14: The Truth Exposed 13 Years Later- Lisa’s Story

Welcome to the Besties with Breasties podcast.

I'm Beth Wilmes, author, speaker, and founder of a human investment organization otherwise known as a nonprofit called Faith Through Fire.

Our mission is to reduce the fear and anxiety breast cancer patients feel and replace it with hope and a path toward thriving.

I'm Jess, a mom of two, former college soccer player, elementary PE teacher, and fitness enthusiast.

I was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer just before my 40th birthday.

And I'm Jamie, researcher, retired professional boxer and breast cancer survivor who keeps life busy and joyful with a funny farm of animals, a loving family, and a big heart to serve others.

This podcast is about our experiences with.

Breast cancer and life after as young survivors and moms.

Good morning.

He literally jumped as I go.

I was just saying good morning.

Good morning.

How are you?

I'm good.

I'm good.

It's another beautiful day.

No humidity.

It is.

I'm hoping.

My mom told me, though it's supposed to rain, so I don't know.

Yes, I hope it doesn't because it's.

The weather's just been amazing lately.

So nice.

Minus my allergies.

Yes.

That's okay, though.

I got my tissues here.

So today we're sitting down with Lisa.

We're in the relationship series.

She's a member of the Faith Through Fire family, and she made one of the hardest decisions I think a lot of women are facing post Covid cancer, and that was the decision to divorce.

So today we're going to talk to Lisa about how she met her husband and what the marriage was like before diagnosis.

Then we're going to talk about when.

Cancer came knocking and finally her divorce and what she's learned looking back.

But before we do that, let's hear from our first sponsor.

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Hi Lisa.

Thanks for joining us.

You're very welcome.

Okay, so let's just jump right in.

Tell me a little bit about how you met your husband.

Well, we were both in college.

It was our junior year and surprise, it was at a fraternity party.

Those are fun.

Yeah, I know.

That was real fun.

I met him at a party.

We just started talking.

Both of our houses were on a team.

Now this is back in 1989 where we had Greek week and fraternities and sororities would join up and have a week long celebration and his house and my house were joined up.

So we saw each other quite a bit that week and yeah, just started kind of dating from there on and off as a stereotypical college drama relationship.

So when you guys got out of college, was it kind of like, oh, we should get married because that's just the next, like the next step?

Yeah.

So we started dating our junior year.

By the end of our senior year, I still hadn't graduated.

Well, neither of us were graduating in four years.

We took an extra semester.

So that summer I finished up my undergrad degree and he went out to California for an internship.

So we were talking 12 cents a minute on AT&T long distance.

And I flew out there a few times during his six month internship and he had given me his fraternity pin and then just this whole big speech as a 22 year old.

I'm loyal, I'm committed, and you're the love of my life and you've changed my outlook and just all the storybook stuff that was almost, well, it turned out to be too good to be true.

But it was a fairy tale beginning for sure, just with the wooing of me taking me to country clubs and not that I wasn't used to that.

I mean, that was.

We were from the pretty much the same socioeconomic class.

But he seemed to be stable.

He seemed to be a go getter.

You know, he had, he was getting a degree, he had plans for getting a job.

And you know, it was stability for me.

When you look back on it, like were your personalities similar?

Do you feel or do you feel like you were.

It was kind of an opposite subtract situation.

You know, I reflect on that so often.

I think we were very similar on the Outside again, you know, we liked the same things, the same sports, the same activities.

We had parents that were still together.

We had families.

You know, he was Catholic, I was Lutheran.

So, you know, that was a little.

Little bit of a problem for my dad.

But, yeah, everything.

I mean, there.

There were literally no.

No differences.

That would be alarming.

Yeah.

Because usually I feel like, Jess, weigh in here on this.

But it's just like, when couples get together, there's some non negotiables.

Right.

Like, I feel like you have to feel the same way about, for example, how you want to raise your kids.

I feel like you need to feel the same way about how you want to manage your money.

I feel like you need to be on the same page on your faith.

It's like if any one of those three things is not in lockstep, I feel like you're starting at a harder place.

So you're saying that you felt like at that time you guys were in that together?

Well, the only thing is he at the time was not a Christian.

And that, to me, I think, put a fire in my belly.

Because at that time, me being like, just.

I was kind of a happy Jesus, you know, on fire for the Lord.

I had grown.

I had grown up in Christian schools, and I learned how to defend my faith.

I studied it, I knew it.

And when I got to college, it was the perfect time to test that faith and that knowledge.

And then when I met my husband, who was God is dead, quoting Nietzsche, I considered him a challenge, I believe.

And I had no intention whatsoever of falling in love with him because he was taboo.

He was a.

No, no, he was not Christian.

And it was just my job to speak the gospel to him.

And so I did.

And he started going to church with me.

And then he couldn't get his hands on enough of Christian literature, and he kind of fell in lockstep.

And he was talking to my brothers and my dad about, you know, what it means to be Lutheran and how is that different from being Catholic?

Because he had a big problem with.

He did not have a, I guess a super upbringing in the Catholic Church, but.

Which is sad.

Okay, so you were kind of drawn to him.

He was a challenge.

But then he kind of rose to that challenge.

You felt like, okay, he's.

He's coming around in my viewpoint.

Right.

Which probably on some level felt satisfying to you.

Yeah, I feel like that's a slippery slope, though.

Right.

Like, I. I've seen couples where one person embraces faith and the other one kind of organically finds it or, you know, the other spouse prompts the.

The other one to get there, and it works out wonderfully.

How much influence?

I don't know, like, what part of that is because your story changes.

So I'm just, like, trying to make sense of this.

Lisa.

I want to get there.

I want to get the difference between that version of him and then the later version that impacted your marriage.

But before we dive into that, you guys want to do Boobs in the News?

Yes.

Let's do it.

All right.

Boobs in the News is a fun segment where we read funny tweets by real people or ridiculous news stories.

Boobs in the News.

Boobs in the News.

Okay, this one happened in good old Missouri, so that's why I did it.

Oh, good.

The title is $50,000 Powerball ticket spent months in Oblivious winner's truck.

So this just happened this month.

A Missouri man set a Powerball ticket he bought in February.

Okay, so for context, it's June.

So what?

How many months is that?

Let me count on my fingers.

February, March, April, May, June.

That's five months.

Wow.

For five months, he had this lottery ticket in his glove box before he decided, like, oh, I should clear these out.

And so he went into a gas station and.

And I guess, scanned them.

And so he was shocked when the store clerk told him he had won $50,000 in the February 11th Powerball drawing.

Wow.

Yeah.

He said, I didn't really know what to say.

I've played for years, and this is the biggest thing I've ever won.

The.

The whole, like, the shock of him winning actually caused him.

He went in, paid for his gas, and then left without getting his gas.

Oh, my gosh.

He was so surprised.

Yeah.

So what I thought was funny about this, actually, it was really sweet.

He's.

They asked him what he was going to do with his winnings, and he said he was going to spend it on his grandkids, Which I was like, that's super sweet.

What a great day.

But my.

My question to you is this.

Do you play the lottery?

I do not.

I mean, every once in a while, if the Powerball gets up really high, I will.

But I feel like after looking for some of these, like, boobs in the news, there's so many about the lottery.

Maybe I should start playing more regularly.

I mean.

Yeah, I was going to give you some stats just so you can feel good about not playing.

Oh, okay, good.

So, first of all, half of U.S. adults.

Okay.

50%.

50% Of the U.S. plays the lottery.

Did you Know that?

No, it's very high.

It seems so high.

So that's 160 to 180 million people who are buying at least one lottery ticket per year.

Wow.

Isn't that crazy?

So I actually just bought this is the story stuck out.

Stuck out to me.

Can't speak because I just bought a Missouri lottery ticket a few months ago and the exact same thing happened.

I bought it, I forgot about it, and I didn't check it until like a couple of months later.

And we were, of course, losers.

But I. I don't normally buy tickets, so it's not like I'm chomping at the bit to check my tickets.

I don't know what got me to buy one.

I just every once in a while, in a blue moon, I'll randomly buy one.

But same exact thing.

I totally forgot about it.

Checked it months later.

And at that time, I was like, if you win and it's been months, do you still get the money?

But I think you do.

There is an expiration.

There is.

There is.

Because I've gotten the scratch off tickets.

Yeah.

And then forgot about.

Forgotten about them for like a year.

Like at Christmas time, a lot of people give those out and then it will say, like, expired.

Expired.

I wonder if that works for the big.

The big.

I don't know.

Well, so half of the US is playing, and Americans spent over $100 billion on lottery tickets.

Now they source.

That's like in 2024.

So it's one of the most popular forms of gambling in the country.

But here's why you shouldn't question whether or not to play.

Because you.

I'm sure you've heard this before.

You're more likely to be struck by lightning.

You have a.

Better than to win.

Wow.

Yeah.

Most financial experts view lottery tickets as paying a few dollars for the enjoyment of imagining what if, rather than any kind of.

I'm going to actually win.

Right.

So it says, basically, compared with winning Powerball, being struck by lightning in your lifetime is likely 19,000 times more likely.

Wow.

Yeah.

Okay.

I don't know that you need to worry about it.

I don't think the odds are in our favor.

Yeah.

But anyway, good for that man that's already made, what a great day.

And his grandkids.

Yeah.

They're going to go on vacation.

I was just going to say, I'm like, what a sweet man.

Where he's like, his first thought is, he's going to spend that on his grandkids because.

Cause I mean, not to poo.

Poo $50,000.

$50,000 Is a lot of money, but it's not like change your life money.

Right.

Although one could argue that if he properly invested that in a business or some stocks, it could turn into that.

So.

So maybe, sir, do not spend it on your grandchildren and invest in your future.

There's your bibs.

Bibs and the news.

Bibs and the news.

Bibs and the nibs.

Okay, before I ask you this question, let me just get the timeline straight.

Did you get breast cancer?

You got breast cancer before you guys got divorced or after?

Well, before I had breast cancer in 2007 and we got divorced in 2020.

We had a very normal, you know, dating this.

And we were, we were, we were, we were like the beavers.

We leave it to beavers.

And then I got breast cancer in 2007.

So we were married for, I don't know, what, 15 years?

2007.

And that was the problem.

The communication breakdown, the, the fear and then the assumptions.

And then Ron did not like my decision, and then he felt like he could not fix me.

And after that, he really dove into our, into faith and he was going to Promise Keepers and all that stuff.

So this is interesting.

I don't want it.

So I don't want to throw him under the bus, but.

But what he did was pretend to be a Christian.

And then when he hit his life, when he hit his midlife crisis, we moved from Pennsylvania to Michigan.

Then it was, then it was Covid.

And you know, he shut down.

He shut down.

He wouldn't talk to me, he wouldn't open up.

He.

I found out he had hidden his childhood abuse from me.

So.

So this opens up a really interesting can of worms that I have seen repeated with so many couples in mid.

What you're saying is, is that you guys were kind of living this idyllic life and then breast cancer hit.

And that was almost like you're saying then everything changed, but it almost sounds like it just opened the door to a bunch of issues that were sitting there that you didn't even know existed, which is what I feel like we're seeing in middle aged couples everywhere.

It's like, everything's great, everything's fine.

And then all of a sudden something happens, whether it's breast cancer or another, you know, major life change, and one or both spouses start going like, shutting down and just not communicating.

And then maybe unresolved traumas that never got addressed are rising to the surface and affecting your relationship in ways you've never seen.

And I Think it's, like, incredibly confusing.

And it sounds like that was your experience, too.

So you're coming off breast cancer, then all of a sudden, your husband starts kind of shutting down.

You start finding out information you didn't even know existed, and now you're not communicating, and things are starting to get really rocky.

Is that right?

Nothing got rocky.

That's my whole point.

It was just.

We shut down, but we.

I guess we had such.

I mean, I took everything to my, you know, my Bible study ladies.

I prayed about it, and Ron kept everything to himself.

So when we found out Ron was cheating on me, the entire world was shocked because nobody saw it coming.

Well, and he's also been projecting this story.

Right.

Of his faith is really important to him, and.

Right.

And it wasn't, because if it was, he would have behaved differently.

He.

You know, he.

You know, he was fine as long as we were in Pennsylvania, and we had a support group and we were going to church, but then we moved to Michigan, and we had no friends.

We had no support group.

And he, you know, he was.

He was at work and I was at home trying to move in and whatnot.

And the separation from our Christian community allowed him to be secretive, and, you know, he wasn't allowed.

Nobody was there to hold him accountable.

Interesting.

Nobody knew me, you know.

No.

Everyone in Pennsylvania knew he was married.

Nobody knew me.

They didn't.

So.

So Was that in 2020 then?

Yeah, that was in 2020.

So did you feel like from 2007 when you were diagnosed with breast cancer and kind of walk through that journey from, like, 2007 to 2020?

What were those 13 years like?

It was 13 years of.

Well, those first.

You know, the impact of breast cancer was scary, obviously.

And I did the best I could to remain strong and, you know, not fall to pieces and get my.

Get, you know, get my ducks in order in a row and understand, you know, the journey of breast cancer?

And I'm.

I'm very independent kind of person, and I needed to know answers, and I needed to know everything.

My husband, on the other hand, wanted to just straight up trust the doctors.

And I.

You know, I wanted the second and third opinion.

So he was not happy.

Now, again, I didn't find this out until the divorce process happened was 13 years later.

And my mother told me that my husband was not happy on my decision for my treatment, but he never told me that, So I assumed we were fine.

And for those 13 years, we just kind of got through cancer.

I was a poster child for the three Day walk?

Not really, but for, in my community I was always, I had a blog for awareness.

I had, it was Instagram posting.

I mean, I did, I was just, I was 38, 39 years old.

So I was young, energetic, and I just had to get people to understand that breast cancer was real and back in the day.

And I grew up in the 80s and we weren't even allowed to say the word breast.

So getting used to that was a challenge in and of itself.

I was getting very comfortable with my scars kind of showing people.

My husband apparently didn't like that either.

He felt left out of the process.

At one point in that 13 years, he told me now this is hindsight's 2020, he said that he had felt like it was very difficult for him to come home to such a well oiled machine and he didn't know where he fit in.

And I remember dismissing that comment, saying, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

We wouldn't, we wouldn't have a well oiled machine if you weren't providing for it.

So that's where you fit in.

That's kind of an interesting point, Lisa, because I hear that from other wives and husband teams, especially like ones who, if they're, if the husbands are in law enforcement or in a profession like where they're, you know, staying at the firehouse and they don't, they're, they're not always home for their, you know, like on shifts.

I've heard that multiple times where the wife will say it's easier to run the house without him here because when he comes home, he's not used to the way I do things and it disrupts everything and then the kids don't act the same and the systems aren't the same.

And he's trying to do something one way, but we've been doing it a different way for a really long time.

I do think there's something to that, that they, the women.

Do you.

Well, let me ask you, do you think there's something to that?

Where we get in this place where we're like, we're running this, this is my domain.

And then the man comes home and it's kind of like get in where you fit in?

Yes.

Okay, that's a short answer.

I think that's the communication breakdown, you know, because I, I mean, I similarly had a situation in our family where I like had a mental breakdown and everybody's like, whoa, what's wrong with mom?

But I said, you guys, like, we're a team.

Of five, there are five people in this house.

And what I don't think you understand is that if, if, if I want it, if you don't do it, then I have to do it.

So if you choose not to participate as a team member and do your part in this family unit, then I am the default person that ends up with all this on my plate.

Now the part that I had to come to terms with is that that was a role I was choosing.

And I was wanting to say I'm a martyr for doing it.

And it's like, but you're choosing to do that, right?

You're choosing to do that.

So.

But it's hard because I think we do want a well run household.

We do want our things in a certain place.

We don't want a mess.

It is stressful to us.

I think women, when we're stressed, like, nobody's happy when we're stressed out.

You know what I mean?

So it's just such a hard thing.

But I think it's communication.

I don't think that there's, I mean, I think women are dealing with this every single day.

And the question is, how do we get.

Because talking about it and talking about it and talking about it and talking about it, you know, you and I were talking like offline Lisa, that it seems like in marriages there comes a point where it goes one direction or the other.

Either somebody finally acknowledges and understands where the other person's coming from and something changes, or the person doesn't understand and they continue to go inward and shut down until there's nothing left of the marriage.

Because the communication is broken down so much.

And it's, it's sad when you don't realize that the, it went, that the communication broke years ago.

But don't you think it creeps up on you, like, to be fair to both you and your husband?

It's like it doesn't come across as just like these huge blow ups, like you said.

You know what I mean?

It comes across in these really tiny little ways of, you know, not acknowledging each other when they walk in the door.

It comes across in, you know, yeah, they do a chore, but it's halfway.

And then you're frustrated instead of grateful.

It's like, you know what I mean?

It's all these little micro terrors that then lead to the big terror.

But it's like nobody's good at spotting these things before they happen until you're in crisis mode.

And then like you said, for a lot of couples, it's Just too late.

Yeah, for me, it was too late.

How did that decision come to be?

Like, obviously, you know, he stepped out on the marriage.

The communication had completely broken down.

I have to imagine that it was terrifying after all those years of security to kind of go out on your own.

It was.

The only way I can describe it as is, you know, my.

I. I was living the dream.

I had worked so hard to create a household that was peaceful.

My children were pretty much obedient.

They didn't do crazy stuff, little mischief, but nothing crazy.

We sat down and eat dinner all the time.

Everything was normal.

So there were no red flags.

So I had built this, and I had.

You know, I was praying about it, asking God, and all this was provided.

And then in a matter of three months, it was gone.

And I felt like I was in a tornado without the house.

I was flying all over the place.

I didn't know which direction to go in, because every direction that I tried to move forward, I got slapped in the face with a roadblock or something didn't work, or something got canceled or that.

That's the way it used to be.

And it was awful.

I mean, I had.

I had friends that wouldn't.

My two neighbors immediately stopped talking to me because they were afraid I was gonna take their husband away.

It's.

It's just.

Wait, what?

Because I.

We had just moved, so I'd only been there for a year and a half, and the two women on either side of me just stopped.

Just stopped saying hi, stopped talking to me.

How did you do it?

Because I know there's, like, a lot of women out there that are listening right now that might be in a similar situation or, you know, are having these same thoughts, and they're just terrified.

What were the things that you did that you credit to getting you to where you are right now?

I had a mentor of mine.

Without even knowing it, she was.

That went through divorce after 27 years of marriage, just like me.

And she reached out immediately and told me, seek out a divorce care class.

It's like nine or ten weeks long.

Just go.

You don't have to participate.

Just go and absorb the material.

And I did.

And I read that, and I was like, there's no way I'm doing this.

There is absolutely no way I'm forgiving my spouse.

There's no way I am waiting five years to date.

You know, there's no way I am dropping my, you know, my guard.

And I felt the pain of my decisions.

So what got me through was doing everything Contrary to what I wanted to do, I forgave my spouse, even though I didn't want to.

Every day.

Every day, I had to actively forgive him because each new day brings a promise that was not fulfilled.

Every day is a broken promise that he was supposed to be here.

So I have to forgive him every day for the crap that goes down today that shouldn't have happened.

So forgiveness is massive.

And the result of harboring unforgiveness is bitterness, anger, frustration, ugly wrinkles, warts, stringy hair, and no friends.

There's some real ramifications, people.

I'm telling you.

A mindset of forgiveness, even though you really don't want to, will lead toward the freedom and all of the beauty that comes with it.

Well, I think.

I think you're touching on something that a lot of people struggle with, is that forgiveness is not a feeling.

It's a choice.

It's a choice.

It 100 is the feeling comes out.

To feel good about it.

And I don't know that you have to feel good about it in order to do it.

No, you don't.

You can despise doing it.

You died.

But, you know, you're talking to the Lord here, and he's like, I know, I know, I know, I know you don't want to, but you have to, because it's not for him.

It's for you.

Yeah.

You know what's also fun is when the Lord's like, but I love them.

And you're like, but why?

I know that was a strong point too, but that's the part that I.

Always get stuck out of.

Like, but why do you love them?

They're so rotten.

Yeah.

And he says, I love them for the same reason I love you, sweetheart.

Right.

But let's take a better look at that.

And God says, I. I discipline the ones I love.

And that caught my attention.

I was like, really?

Yeah.

So I stepped back.

I said, I stopped doing petty things.

I stopped just doing the things.

I was like, I'm gonna stick to them, you know?

And I just did this little thing that I knew he was gonna, like, cause, you know, a little mischief maybe down the road.

I stopped doing those dumb things.

I stopped being sarcastic and all that stuff.

And I watched what happened.

And what's happening in my ex spouse's life right now is kind of funny.

His life is like a country song.

It's.

Everything's going backwards.

He's lost his job, and the woman that he cheated on me with dumped him.

He has to go live with his parents.

Just kind of funny stuff.

So while I am experiencing what I considered just a lot of struggles because my life looks so different, I consider this divorce kind of a rescue mission from God in saying, like, I know this is going to hurt Lisa, but I got to prune that guy off of you because he's bringing you down.

And it's been five or six years now.

And I did follow what divorce care said.

I have not dated anyone, and I'm very, very comfortable in my singleness again.

I've learned a tremendous amount about myself.

And if I.

If I had dated someone, I would not have learned what I've learned to.

To love myself, like, how to do that.

You know, when you go from high school to college, right into marriage and family and all that stuff, you don't know how to take care of yourself.

You've always been taken care of or.

And then you start taking care of someone else in the form of a baby.

Is that.

I saw there's a famous.

I don't even know who he is, but he.

He has reals, of course, all the time.

He's like this famous divorce attorney, and he talks on air about what he sees in these divorced couples.

And he was talking about how most divorcees get remarried within six months.

And, you know, of course, once you've been divorced once, the statistics are pretty high that you're going to get divorced again and have multiple marriages.

But I think it kind of speaks to your point of people.

People want relationship.

They want to feel cared for.

They want to be in relationship with people.

But if you don't know yourself, if you don't do the hard work of kind of exposing everything that went wrong the first time and where you need to grow as a person before you jump back into a relationship, you're going to be in the exact same boat you were in before with no communication skills, not understanding what your needs are or who you are.

So I think it's incredibly wise that you took that time and did the things even though you didn't feel like doing them.

It sounds like it's paying off.

I am so pleased with the return on my investment.

Is that through a church or how did you find that class?

Is that just something that you can Google?

Yeah, it's.

It's one word.

Divorce Care.

And there they have programs everywhere.

I could have chosen from eight or nine.

Some of them are on, you know, Sunday night.

Some of them are on Wednesday mornings.

Some, you know, they're in there.

I think it's like $15 because you got to pay for the book.

But I go back to that book and I read it and I kind of giggle at my answers and I'm like, yep, I was definitely in a different state of mind.

I was, I was in anger mode.

I was in rebellion.

I was, I was so pissed off at life.

And then at the same time, just crying.

I know I can't do this.

I don't know how to do this.

And all I heard was, just get through today.

Just make good choices today.

Don't worry about next year.

You know, what is, what is your daily devotion say today?

Think about that.

And, oh, by the way, go forgive your spouse.

Yeah, right.

Here's this little assignment.

Well, I want to.

I want to wrap up with your final words to women who are listening to this and feel really familiar if this feels really familiar to them and they're questioning what to do next.

But before we hear from you on that, let's hear from our second sponsor.

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All right, Lisa, what are some final words that you have for anybody listening that might find themselves in a similar season?

Oh, the seasons are just seasons.

And you've been through a season before.

God is still good.

Nothing changes that.

He navigates everything from a breast cancer diagnosis to a divorce situation.

And it really sucks that we have to live through the event, but he is already on the other side of it, calling you to him saying, follow me and see what I got planned for you.

My advice is to just hang in there.

Find your people that love you.

Yeah, that's great.

That's powerful.

Thank you so much, Lisa, for sharing your story and what you've learned.

And I think our listeners are going to find it really useful.

Until next time, guys.

See ya.

Thank you for being a listener of the Besties with Breasties podcast.

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