S6E17: Why Is It So Hard to Let Our Kids Struggle?

Welcome to the Besties with Breasties podcast.

I'm Beth Wilmes, author, speaker, and founder of a human investment organization otherwise known as a nonprofit called Faith Through Fire.

Our mission is to reduce the fear and anxiety breast cancer patients feel and replace it with hope and a path toward thriving.

I'm Jess, a mom of two, former college soccer player, elementary PE teacher and fitness enthusiast.

I was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer just before my 40th birthday.

And I'm Jamie, researcher, retired professional boxer and breast cancer survivor who keeps life busy and joyful with a funny farm of animals, a loving family, and a big heart to serve others.

This podcast is about our experiences with breast cancer and life after as young survivors and moms.

So, Jamie, how you doing, babe?

I mean, you know, some things are working against us, but we're here, so I'm excited.

We've had some tech issues lately.

The podcast is like, not cooperating.

But we're gonna.

We're.

That's all right.

We're here for it.

It's gonna work.

Okay, so today's topic is interesting on so many levels to me.

So we're gonna talk about adult kids who don't adult and just parenting in general and what it's like in the modern world.

But I wanted to talk about this in the context of relationship series because I feel.

And maybe you don't, but I, I feel like I know so, so many parents who are getting railroaded by their kids and it's like, these are adults who do not know how to function without mom and dad running their life.

And I am curious if you've seen that as well.

Like, what age range are you talking about?

Okay, so let me give you two examples.

Okay, so I know a woman who still drives her 25 year old daughter around because she refuses to get her driver's license because she has anxiety.

And the woman was telling me how stressful it is, like, to have to take her everywhere.

And you know me, Jamie.

I'm like, well, that's not a daughter problem.

That's a you problem.

And yeah, you know what I mean?

I'm like, stop driving her.

I'm like, there's no incentive for her to go get her license.

And she's like, well, she has anxiety.

I'm like, yeah, well, my son had anxiety about getting his driver's license.

And the conversation was, I understand that this makes you anxious.

That's completely normal.

But you're perfectly capable.

You, you're expected to study for the test.

I'm gonna take you on Tuesday.

And you know what?

We took him, he got his license, he was anxious about it, and now he loves driving.

And so that's example number one.

Example number two is actually friends of my parents.

Okay?

So my parents are in their 70s, and so these are friends of theirs.

They bought their adult son a house, but when he stopped making payments to them, which was the agreement, they sold the home.

And then he has gone, no contact.

So since then, he will not speak to them.

Now, riddle me that.

This, this is what I'm seeing with kids today.

I'm not kidding.

I think it's like an epidemic.

Entitlement, weakness and their thinking, the ability to persevere.

Kind of coddling.

Yes.

I mean, I guess.

Fall on this.

Well, unpopular opinion.

This is not a kid failure.

This is a parental failure.

I agree.

That's.

You know what I mean?

So the question isn't, can they do it?

The question is, were they prepared to do it?

And I think so many kids have been protected from responsibility rather than prepared for it that now you've got young adults today that can't make decisions independently.

They can't manage their finances.

They can't have a difficult conversation.

They don't know how to delay gratification.

They can't handle criticism.

They don't know how to persevere when they're uncomfortable.

They don't know how to take ownership when they screw up.

So today we're gonna talk about, like, modern parenting and what we're seeing.

The removal of productive struggle and just.

The mental health and meaning crisis that it's creating for these kids.

But before we jump into that, let's hear from our first sponsor.

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We're back.

You were gonna say something, and I cut you off.

I have so many thoughts.

Like, first of all, in listening to you, I think about how far the pendulum has swung from generationally, like, how we were raised and how I think people have tried to overcorrect.

I mean, we were absolutely feral in the 80s and 90s.

Like, our parents didn't know where we were.

We were drinking out of garden hoses.

Be home by the time the lights get on.

You know, we had a lot independence and risk taking.

There was no technology to capture it.

Right.

Like, there's so many things that I think about watching, raising my kids that, like, did I try and do magenta parenting?

Sure.

Do I still know that they have to know how to productively struggle managing anxiety and persevere because life's hard for everyone?

Absolutely.

Just the instant gratification and the instant access and reinforcement.

The false reinforcement that, like, you get thumbs up and likes.

Like, there's so many things that contribute to the anxiety of this generation, and it's important to know how we parent through that.

Well, you're exactly right.

And parents are doing more for their children than any other generation in history.

And so how ironic that we're doing more for them and many young adults feel less capable.

And it's because confidence doesn't come from being protected.

It comes from overcoming challenges.

I. I talked to this lady the other day, and she was basically telling me how she manages her son's life.

And I was like, okay, but you understand.

She's like, if I don't do it, it's just not going to get done.

And I'm like, you understand that when you're doing this, you're sending him the message that you don't think he's.

And he's internalizing that.

And then he is basically rising to your standard and basically confirming what you've told him, which is that you're too dumb to do this on your own.

I'm like, or I could do it better.

Or yeah, Yeah.

I just think these parents are like, so just.

They think they're protecting these kids and trying to set them up for success in the future.

And they don't recognize that they're subliminally telling these kids, I have zero confidence in you.

Like, isn't that crazy?

I mean, you apparently hit a hot butt with me.

I didn't Even know what we were talking about today.

And I have so many thoughts.

Well, okay, so here's the thing.

I originally was going to interview somebody who is a.

Whose adult children don't.

Adult.

Right.

But what I noticed was that there were people that would acknowledge that that was the case for them.

But most people felt very apprehensive about coming on and talking about it because they wanted to protect their child's feelings, which I thought was super interesting.

I'm like, they're not listening to this number one.

But number two, like that the parent felt guilty for like acknowledging the problem.

Right.

They didn't want the child to feel bad.

But I also was just like at the end of the day, I'm like, you know what?

I don't want to interview somebody about this because it's a sensitive topic.

I think the parents 100% mean well and this is all based in significant love.

But at the same time I think it's detrimental.

And I'm like, this is probably a better one on one conversation between the hosts than it is to interview somebody on this.

Like, don't you agree?

Sure, yeah.

I mean I totally agree.

It's all comes from a place of love and wanting maybe to do different or better from their vantage point than how they were raised.

There's no toolbox that we get.

But we all can take our upbringing and then how we want things to go and figure out a way forward as parents.

But yeah, there's, there's risk and benefit to all the ways we parent.

For sure.

It's.

It starts early too.

I, I saw this real on social.

Now you have to take that with a grain of salt.

Right.

Because most of the time that's not necessarily based in fact.

But it was some guy, some psychologist saying that one of the biggest.

Do you know what one of the.

According to him what one of the biggest determinants of productive kids is?

Oh, what?

It's whether or not they do chores at home.

Yeah.

I mean mind view them.

How much I have to like stay on them is a different conversation.

But we absolutely have chores in our household.

I mean, but I will tell you when I'm bickering with my kids about them not fulfilling their responsibilities, the conversation is always the same.

Do we ask that much of you?

No.

You know, you have a list of three or four things that you're responsible for in this house.

Your dad and I do the rest.

I don't think that's too much for you.

Stay on top of it.

You know, it's like but that conversation happens over and over and over and over again.

So.

So to be fair and to.

This is your point, right?

Like, you have to be on them like white on rice.

Like, if they think you're not going to hold them accountable, they're going to slide.

Right.

And it's exhausting to stay on top of them and constantly make them accountable and constantly point out how they're not meeting their commitments.

And I think that's why a lot of parents don't do it.

Well, you put it, you put the work in on the front end or the back end.

Right.

The parents that are still doing things for their adult children didn't enforce that on the front end.

So, I mean, it's just where you want to invest your time.

Another thing that I think about, Beth, think about when our kids were little, like toddlers, and they would fall down, scrape a knee, what is their reaction?

What's the first thing they do?

Typically, they look to you, they look to you to see how you're gonna react.

And I think that is one of the earliest ways in which we can show our kids that, you know, how productive struggle, not having a fear based response, showing that fortitude is.

We don't react, you know, we support.

But I think it is so profound.

And it starts really early.

And I think a lot of these parents of this generation that have done this, you know, where they've kind of removed this productive struggle for kids, it's like because they GRE up feeling again, not cared for in some way.

And so they're determined to not repeat that cycle.

But there's a happy medium there, right?

Yeah.

And I think like you said, the pendulum has gone too far to one way or the other way.

And it does, it looks like, okay, you don't make them do chores.

You start managing their schedule for them.

You start, you know, if they forget their homework, you're bringing it up to school for them.

You're, you know, it's like, no.

The other day, my son, I knew my son was oversleeping and was going to be late to work.

And I did not wake him up.

And when he got up, he was furious.

He's like, why didn't you wake me up?

I said, you're 16 years old and his boss does not throw any punches.

Like, he, I knew his boss would be mad.

And I said, look, you're 16 years old, you slept through your alarm.

You need to figure out a way to get yourself up.

I'm not here to sit there and manage you like you're two.

And he got to work.

And you know, when he got home that evening, I said, how did it go when you went in there late?

Well, first of all, here's what happened.

He called his boss to apologize and to say that he overslept.

He was two hours late to work.

His boss told him not to come in.

So that was ouch.

Number one, he felt terrible the entire rest of the day.

Ben was beside himself.

He hated that.

The boss was like, we'll figure it out.

Don't come in.

Then the next shift that Ben went in for, he showed up early, right?

Trying to make amends.

And the boss, the first thing he said to him was, you are on a very short rope.

Do not let that happen again.

Now, was Ben chronically late?

No, but I love that this guy was like that.

I love that I let him feel that consequence.

And I told him, I said, that feeling of shame and embarrassment, I said, happens to all of us.

I said, but this is why it's important to honor your commitments and to put processes in place to where you don't have to feel this again.

But don't worry about it.

Like, we've all done it.

You're human.

Don't let it ruin your day.

You know, move on.

That natural giving, letting him experience that natural consequence will shape his behavior way more quickly than coddling and fixing for him.

He will not want to feel like again.

Yeah, no, correct.

And I mean, it's just like.

But it's hard.

I mean, I agree that it's hard to let them fail.

I was just going to say the other thing I'm noticing with this generation is the lack of confidence in shaking someone, hand making eye contact, looking them in the face, and speaking to them.

And so that is, like a skill that we demand of our kids to practice all the time.

And so, like, just the other day we had to go renew library cards.

My kids are looking at me to, like, say what we need to say at the front desk.

And I'm like, what do you want to say?

What do you need?

And, you know, they have to practice those things.

Those are life skills they're going to need.

And I'm doing them no favors by doing it for them.

Yeah, they need to experience failure.

Failure is such a growth catalyst.

And it's like, if you never fail, you just.

You're stunted.

You are stunted.

And I. I tell the kids all the time, I'm like, guys, if you're not failing, then you're not living life.

Like, I don't want to hear from you unless you tell me kind of where you fell short on something, because this is what shapes you into the person that you're going to become.

And they just always think that's stupid, but I will.

Yeah, but a kid that never fails or gets rejected or experiences consequences, you know, they're just going to lack the muscles required for adulthood.

And our job as parents is not to be their best friend.

It's literally so that they can leave the nest and be productive on their own without you.

And I think that's so hard because I think a lot of parents hate the idea of not being needed.

And that makes me wonder, is there a deeper thing going on where they're playing the martyr, right?

Like, oh, I have to drive them, and, oh, I had to do this for them and that for them.

But I'm like, they're getting something from that.

You know what I mean?

They need to be needed.

Yeah, they need to be needed.

And it's like, to me, that signals that you need to do work on yourself because you should not be depending on your child needing you for your happiness.

That's right.

External validation.

Let's talk about the mental health connection.

But before we do that, you want to do Boobs in the News.

Let's go.

Boobs in the News is a fun segment where we read funny tweets by real people or ridiculous news stories.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

The title of the this one is, she was ticketed for holding a phone.

There's only one big problem.

Deputy accuses Florida women of having device in her right hand, but she doesn't have one.

Oh, I know this one.

So when I first read that, do you know this story?

This just happened.

So a Florida traffic become an Internet smash.

Yes.

So this deputy pulls this woman over and accuses her of holding a phone in her right hand.

The problem is, is that she didn't have the right hand.

So she basically, she holds.

She's 36 years old.

The body cam footage shows her holding up her right arm, which ends at the elbow.

And when he explained why he pulled her over for holding her phone, she was like, obviously not, you know, but she was laughing, like, good naturedly.

She, like, she was being nice about it.

Right?

But she did eventually.

She was like, can we just call this a day?

And then the deputy continued with, hand to God, you didn't have an iPhone in your hand.

I'm like, dude, that's what you say to somebody who has no hand.

So she again displays her arm, right?

He gives her the ticket.

Anyway, so the part that I think is super funny is that he could have just apologized and been like, this is embarrassing.

I'm sorry, my mistake.

Have a good day.

No, no, no.

He doubles down and issues her a ticket.

But then later, I think it's hilarious, like she posted the whole thing and like went viral for it.

I mean she had such a great sense of.

I know, well, and this guy, of course, you know, he came to his senses and basically asked that the ticket get dismissed in court.

And I'm like, you think, dude, you do not come off well in the story.

I was like, this is historical story.

It's such a good story.

I mean we know who the boob is in this.

But I love the woman that was just like whatever, you know well.

And she timed it like you have to go watch, go look for the video.

Because like he's like, you had a phone in your right hand.

And she like does this amazing wait time and then lifts up her nub.

She's like, nope, she slayed that situation.

I love this home girl.

She's awesome.

Oh my God, there's your boob.

We don't even need to say who the boob is in the story.

We know.

I know, I know.

All right, there it is.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs and the news.

We're back.

Let's talk about the mental health connection because one thing that I hear repeatedly from these parents who are over managing their kids lives is that there's a fear there under the surface.

The, the fear is they can't take care of themselves.

The fear is that they have overwhelming anxiety.

The fear is, is that their child might hurt themselves.

Like the one woman who was driving around her 25 year old daughter who said she had anxiety.

I guess she had experienced self harm behaviors before.

And so this woman was almost like paralyzed into doing these things for fear of what could happen if she didn't do it.

Think that's like interesting.

So like when we're talking about mental health, it's not just mental health of the child and what you're potentially setting them up for by doing everything.

It's also like the underlying issue of the parent and the fear that exists there.

I walked alongside people whose children struggled with mental ill self harm.

I think that's a different conversation than the one we're having around parents that want to buffer and coddle and just over support children to not experience adversity in the world.

I think Those are two different camps.

Okay, so you think they're two different camps because I, I think one feeds the other.

But I do want to minimize.

One's more serious.

Right.

Like, obviously one's more serious.

That.

Yeah, no, yeah, no, obviously if your kid is engaging in self harm, that's a serious thing that requires a different level of intervention and care.

Yes.

I don't really know how that would relate to doing things for them, but.

I hear you.

But I do think it's interesting, this level of fear that exists with these parents of if I don't do it, something bad could happen, just generally speaking, or the, you know, so experts are observing that anxiety is rising at the same time that independence is declining.

So I think, you know, historically, young people worked earlier, had more responsibilities and contributed more to family life.

And today they've got more freedom, more entertainment, more support, but then less confidence.

I noticed this.

Like, again, I'm going back to Ben because he's my oldest, but when he turned 16, you know, he had a car.

We bought the car for him, but we said, you need to pay the insurance and you need to pay for the gas and you're gonna be required to get a job.

And so that was the, that was the requirements of the car.

And I remember my father in law being like, you know, it's different today.

He's 16.

Most places don't hire until you're 18, you know, and Ben did.

He struggled to find work.

Like he was on the cusp of taking a fast food job, which he did not want to do, but it was the only thing that he was getting interviews for.

But he understood, right?

I don't.

I understand that you have preferences when it comes to your employment, but regardless, you need to be employed.

So he was getting ready to bite the bullet and do the thing he didn't want to do, which was the fast food.

But it was interesting to me that his grandpa was like, you know, and his grandpa's a farmer.

And if you knew how he was raised and what he was responsible for at Ben's age, it would shock you that he has this opinion, right?

Like, he's very soft with the grandkids, but he certainly didn't grow up that way, which I find really interesting.

But short story is, Ben now has three jobs.

He works at a farm and home place.

He works.

He has his own lawn mowing business in the neighborhood.

So he mows like 8 yards in the lawn.

And then he also stocks a concession stand for a ballpark.

So this kid has gone from, oh, he can't get any job because he's too young to.

Now he has three jobs with three different bosses with three different responsibilities.

And Ben has adhd, so it's so good for him.

Some people are going to think that's overkill, you know, that he has too much.

But I think it's just been awesome for breeding in him, confidence in different situations and keeping him busy and giving him a work ethic.

But it was just so fascinating to me that people were making excuses for him as to why he couldn't work at 16.

So my question to you is, did you work at 16?

I did.

And 15 and 14 like you said.

Exactly.

We had jobs before child labor laws.

Right.

Well.

Oh, you got paid under the table.

That's how you got around those.

So what was your job at 14?

Well, babysitting.

Babysitting was huge.

I did a dog walking, watering flowers.

Just resourceful stuff like that.

Yeah, my first job was a hostess, a restaurant, and then.

Yeah, but kudos.

Kudos to you for sitting those guardrails and saying, we'll figure it out together.

But I'm not.

I'm not giving you a path.

I, you know, again, it's not like, oh, we're the best parents in the world.

We've screwed up more times than we can count.

I think the thing is, is when you realize you're going down the path of enabling, which is what I think we're veering into with a lot of this, you have to just be willing to correct.

It's never too late to, you know, to self correct.

Right.

I can't tell you how many times Gary and I've gone down a path and be like, nope, we're screwing it up.

We gotta reverse and go the other direction.

I mean, it's not an indictment on anybody because we're all, you know, doing the best we can.

But I think it's hard when you recognize that it's not working and you keep doing the same thing.

That's my biggest pet peeve in life, is when you're on the hamster wheel, you know, something's not benefiting anybody and you just keep doing it the same way.

I literally cannot.

I cannot take it.

So there's, you know, there's the fostering that independence is incredibly important.

But let's talk about the meaning part, because I think that a lot of young people, and we just talked about this in our faith episode, a lot of young people are saying, what is my purpose?

Why am I here?

What should I do with My life.

And I think a lot of times the message is just follow your passion or do what feels good or, you know, be your own person.

And it comes at the expense of accountability and structure and doing things you don't enjoy.

Like what are your thoughts on that?

And paying the bills.

Right.

You know, it's funny, I'm a very passion, purpose oriented person and I'll never forget somewhere along my 20 year career when I was looking for the next thing my husband said, you know, most people don't get the benefit of your passion also being their job and that you have to work, you've got to find ways to contribute.

And then in slurry to that, how do you, how do you that passion in creative ways.

And so that was, you know, an indication because as a young woman I'm like, I'm going to save the world and you know, all these things and really I just, I need a good job where I can show up and work hard and provide for my family and then find partnerships like yours and ways that I can give back to things that mean something to me.

So I think it's a bit of leveling and like, keep your feet on the ground, be realistic, and then find ways to interweave your passion into things.

But I also think there's something to be said about just showing up, being a reliable person, working hard, giving your best effort no matter what the job is.

Yeah, I feel so.

I used to be the person that's like, work is there to pay the bills, right?

And, and passion is nice, but not necessary and grew up feeling that way because my dad was very much that way.

My dad was like, oh God, you kids, you, you kids with your passion and needing to feel, you know, a sense of purpose and everything.

Not everything's that difficult.

I have since come around to the idea that, you know, like now I discourage my kids from following a career just because it makes a lot of money, you know, so it shows up for sure.

You know, I mean, it shows up for me in that way like where I'm like, hey guys, you know, you don't need to make a ton of money to be happy.

I know this for a fact because I walked away from that world to, to make and so just give some thought about something that you don't dread doing every day.

So I think that's kind of like I've fallen into the middle ground on that, whereas I used to be much, much more.

But I agree, I mean, it's just like kids today are not told, like, I Mean, you know, it's easy to follow your passion if somebody else is paying the bills, you know, passion also, like, you get if you build yourself a good career and you do the hard work maybe that you don't love, you do get more opportunities as you get older to kind of branch out like you said, and find other avenues for that.

So, you know, it's not to say that you can never make a change.

Most people have multiple careers in their lifetime and can choose different paths, but you gotta set yourself up for the financial freedom that allows you to make that choice.

I don't want my kids to do something that makes them miserable, but I also don't want them to shy away from hard work just because it might not totally light them up inside, that there's opportunities in every situation, kind of find the good and the fun and that, you know, that passion will come.

So I. I totally agree with you.

All right, well, before we kind of sign off, let's hear from our second sponsor.

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All right, we're back.

Final words.

Jamie, what do you think?

I kind of want to hear your final words on this one.

This is an interesting topic.

I mean, for me, it just makes me sad when I talk to these parents.

I can tell they're dissatisfied.

I can tell they're worried.

I can tell they're nervous.

And so for me, if this is you and there are extenuating circumstances, right?

Mental illness, self harm, you can't just say, oh, this, so what?

Right.

I get that.

Like, you can't just dismiss that as the same as a child who just doesn't have the coping skills necessary to face adversity.

So I think you are wise to differentiate between those situations.

At the same time, I want to encourage people to quit underestimating your kids.

Like, your kids are capable of so much more.

And I know it comes from a place of worry and of protectiveness, but you gotta let them fail and it's okay.

And it's not a reflection on you as a parent if they do.

All right, guys, until next time.

See ya.

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