S6E18: Your Desire Changed After Cancer. Now What?

Welcome to the Besties With Breasties podcast.

I'm Beth Wilmes, author, speaker, and founder of a human investment organization otherwise known as a nonprofit called Faith Through Fire.

Our mission is to reduce the fear and anxiety breast cancer patients feel and replace it with hope and a path toward thriving.

I'm Jess, a mom of two, former college soccer player, elementary PE teacher, and fitness enthusiast.

I was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer just before my 40th birthday.

And I'm Jamie, researcher, retired professional boxer, and breast cancer survivor who keeps life busy and joyful with a funny farm of animals, a loving family, and a big heart to serve others.

This podcast is about our experiences with.

Breast cancer and life after as young survivors and moms.

How you doing this morning, Jess?

I am great.

How are you?

You're always great.

I'm waiting for the day when you're, like, not doing so good.

You're always just a rash.

Sun.

Well, I mean, it's beautiful outside.

It is nice.

I know we've had a lot of rain lately, which has been kind of gloomy.

So today I was just in a good mood strictly because the sun was shining.

I know when you just wake up and you see the sun, it's like.

Yes, I know.

I really question Missouri sometimes.

Oh, me too.

I'm like, why do I live here?

I know.

I always tell my husband that, too.

And he's like, who are you kidding?

We're not moving.

And I'm like, that's the thing about Missouri.

I know we're not moving either, but I would love to live somewhere else.

Yeah.

Where it's beautiful all the time.

Yes.

Like, Gary and I decided that the perfect temperature is, like, 78 degrees with no humidity, so wherever that is, that's.

Where I want to live.

Yeah.

And then it gets kind of cooler at night.

Yeah.

But you do have warm enough days to where if you get in the water, it's not freezing.

Right.

So basically, we want perfection.

Right.

And I want, like, beautiful trees.

Yes.

And blue skies.

Yes, exactly.

Well, now that we've cleared that up, should we dive into what we're talking about?

Let's do it.

Let's do it.

We're talking about intimacy post cancer.

Although our guest today is just an expert on all things intimacy, regardless.

So it's not even just related to cancer, which I think a lot of women can relate to, especially those of us that are cruising right into menopause.

So today we're going to talk to Angela Skirtu.

She has a Master's of education.

She's a Licensed marriage and family therapist, and she's a certified sex therapist supervisor.

Whoa.

It's a lot of, like, tss.

I feel like my braces are making me, like, say that.

Really funny.

I'm like, am I.

Am I lisp?

Lispy.

But she's nationally recognized as a relationship and sex therapist, author, speaker, educator, and founder of open bedroom doors.

And that's kind of what got my attention, was the name of her business.

Yeah, I like that.

So she has more than 20 years of experience helping individuals and couples build healthier relationships through improved communication, emotional intimacy, and sexual wellness.

She's the creator of the built to last framework and has been featured in major media outlets, including the Huffington post, Women's day, Psychology Today.

So as a certified sex therapist and a A. M. FT Approved supervisor, she is passionate about training the next generation of therapists while empowering people to create stronger, more fulfilling relationships.

Ooh, that sounds.

I know.

Heavy.

I know.

Well, we.

We need her, though, right?

We do.

We do.

For sure.

We need her.

We need to.

So today we're going to talk about how to rebuild intimacy post cancer, what.

To do if desire disappears after treatment.

Or menopause, and what communication tools can help couples reconnect emotionally and sexually, maybe generally, but also after a major health crisis.

But before we jump in with Angela, let's hear from our first sponsor.

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Welcome, Angela.

Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for having me.

I was so excited to talk to you.

We were talking a little bit Offline before we hopped on here about.

I really enjoyed your website.

Open bedroom Doors.

It's fun.

It feels low pressure and intimacy is just such an issue for couples.

And I feel like in particular it's an issue for middle aged couples.

Do you find that or do you not think that there's a specific time of life where it rears its head more often than others?

Well, I actually have three ideal client avatars and that's one of them.

Right.

So I would say it absolutely rears its head.

Then my, my three times that people are most likely to come see me are.

I call it the post baby calibration couples.

They're like right after they just had a baby and like, life is kind of stressful.

They're in the weeds.

So that's one time that people tend to come in and get my help.

A second time is actually as the kiddos get.

They grow up a little bit and they have more independence and they're in school.

And so then suddenly the couple is forced to reassess what's going on in life and what do we want out of our sex life.

And then that third couple is the one you described, which is going through perimenopause and menopause.

Our children are launching.

We have more time.

And essentially they have two different goals for life.

Sometimes, like, one was like, let's be like teenagers again cause we have free time.

And the other one's like, oh, thank good sex.

I'm just over it.

Yeah, the exhaustion is just there.

Yeah.

And I, I just think how people even like, there's a way that because of the kiddos, our world is all work kid or work kid, work kid, work kid.

And so as a result, we lose each other along the way to this part of life.

And so you essentially create two visions, two separate visions.

And that's why people are often coming in at this time among like hormones and issues changing, is that they've really had to live almost two separate lives to get where they're at and survive.

And then suddenly they have time again and they're like, now what?

Right.

I wanted this and you want this.

How do we.

Yeah, well, my hand signals were like, how do we bring it together in alignment?

Yeah, I agree.

I do think it's divide and conquer.

Jess, you do a lot of sports with the kids, don't you?

And Tom just kind of like, you take this one, I'll take that one.

We'll meet up at night and then you're both exhausted and then it's just like you know, I'm tired.

Then you have to redo it all of the next day.

So it's.

Yes, it's Gary and I literally have conversations about how excited we are to get into our bed.

But it's not for intimacy.

Like, it's unnatural how much.

It's, like, how much we look forward to our coffee.

That first cup of coffee in the morning is the same way now that we feel about getting into our bed.

And I'm like, is this okay?

You know, you start to question, is this healthy?

You know?

And for me, I can only speak to my experience, Jess, I'll let you chime in about yours, but for me, it's that exhaustion piece.

Because, like, this idea of, oh, we're more independent, we can do more.

That's true.

We have way more flexibility.

If we want to go out for an evening, the kids stay home by themselves, and that's fine.

Being a cancer survivor, I'm not interested in binge drinking, right?

And my idea of, like, let's go out and be young again, that was my youth, was like, go out, have a great time, overindulge, right?

Feel terrible the next day and be able to sleep it off.

It's like, as an adult, I don't really want to do that.

I'm in that.

More of that exhausted I've been go, go, go for so long now.

We're both tired.

Pile on that.

All the hormonal changes that both he and I are both experiencing.

And that's something I want to ask you, Angela.

Like, I think a lot of times the women beat themselves up about perimenopause or menopause and their lack of desire, but I think men have that issue, too.

Do you see that?

Well, I want to call back to something you said, because, I mean, you're hitting right on the reason why everybody's struggling, and it's burnout and exhaustion.

It's that, like, the number one reason people are struggling with intimacy is because they're working so hard that by the time they get home, all they can do is go to sleep.

And it's causing medical problems.

It's causing issues all around.

And another thing you said that is just so important to point out is, like, there's more to life than drinking.

So I'm side note, I'm sober for three years now.

Congratulations.

I know, it's really awesome.

And I had to learn, like, what does a quality life look like without alcohol?

And it essentially looks like coming up with new ways to have fun.

Like, you can't Live a life that's just work, work, work constantly, and actually have a quality life.

You're just exhausted and tired and, like, over time, that basically drains the relationship until it's empty.

And so what I learned is I like roller skating and I like dancing, and I don't need to wait until I'm retired to enjoy those things.

That's the other thing.

It's like the whole world is waiting to have a quality life until they're finished working.

And that's bullshit.

You can have a quality life now.

We need to play every day, not just on the weekends, not just when you have one hour free.

It needs to be carved into your life.

And this hustle culture is destroying people.

What a.

But I think it's, like, more complicated than, oh, you just need date nights.

Because Gary and I tried that, right?

Like, we.

We said, oh, you know, we need to get back to date nights.

And so what would we do?

And this goes to your point, right?

We're exhausted, so we're like, well, we'll just go to a restaurant, right?

And.

And then we'll let somebody serve us for once.

And we sit there, and we're both just tired.

And I'm like, I could be doing this at home with healthier food.

And it's like.

But the idea of going.

You know, he and I talked about it, like, when we were younger, our dates would include going down to the art museum, or, you know, we would.

We would find some novel thing to do together that didn't necessarily cost money or involved drinking.

But now it just feels like too much work.

You're right that the date night isn't going to cut it alone.

It's a whole life change.

And what it looks like is looking at everything from the start to the finish of your day and saying, where am I carving in space for play throughout my day?

And where am I carving in relaxation?

Relaxing.

Like, there are people who are working straight through lunch.

Like, where do I allow myself to, like, take a lunch and actually stop?

So that kind of segues into an area I want to get to, which is, do we need to be able to relax and enjoy our lives before we feel like having sex?

Yeah, that's.

That's.

That's what I'm wondering here with what you're saying.

I want to dive into that.

But before we do that, you want to do Boobs in the News?

Yes.

Let's do it.

All right.

Boobs in the News is a fun segment where we read funny tweets by real people or ridiculous News stories.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

Did you get the picture?

I haven't looked at it yet.

I just got it sitting in my box so that I can look at it when you tell me to.

So this is really funny, but a man at Costco ordered a cake.

Okay.

And he drew a picture of what he wanted his cake to look like.

And the result that he got was actually really funny.

Okay, so go ahead, look at the picture.

Okay, hold on.

There's, like, three images.

Did you send me three images?

I did.

Okay.

Yeah.

So he gives clear instructions.

Yeah.

No writing, no designs.

No writing, no designs.

Only request red frosting on the perimeter.

Right.

For the top or the bottom.

Hold on.

I'm going to picture number two.

Oh, gosh.

They drew the cake on the cake?

Yes.

Okay.

So he drew the picture of what he wanted his cake to look like, which was just red icing with a little bit of black going down, like at the corners.

They drew the actual picture of what.

He did on the cake.

So they gave him a white cake.

With a red box with some black outline in the middle of the cake.

Oh, my gosh.

So who's the boob?

Is it the cake decorator or was it his directions?

Although his directions seem pretty clear.

I thought his directions were super clear.

When I opened the first picture to see what his directions were, I was like, okay, you know, that's.

That's pretty basic.

Like, I was questioning his decorating because I'm like, you're not going to put anything in writing on the cake?

Or maybe he wanted to do that himself afterwards.

No, he just wanted the red cake.

That's hilarious.

You know what that makes me think of, though?

Gary just showed me a reel, and he was like, people are so dumb.

There was a woman in her garden, and she had a gardening can, and then she had a hose with a sprayer on the end of it, and she was taking the sprayer hose and filling the garden or filling the watering can and then watering her plants instead of just.

Instead of just spraying the plants with the sprayer.

Oh, my goodness.

She had the watering can in her hand.

Had the sprayer in the other hand, was filling up the watering can and then watering her plants.

Well, were the plants on the ground or were they kind of high up where she needed the watering can?

No, that would be.

I mean, because you could still reach up if they were high.

They were low to the ground plants.

And she was basically creating an extra step for herself.

That's Funny.

Maybe she wanted to know exactly how much water they were getting.

If you watched the video, you would know that that was not the case.

Okay.

Okay.

This was not somebody that was concerned about precision.

This was somebody who had watched, like, too many real, like, you know what I mean?

I'm like, oh, girlfriend, that's funny.

Go back to school.

All that to say that the cake decorating.

I feel like we can be confident that the cake decorator was not a child.

I mean, and it clearly says, only red frosting on perimeter for tap and madam.

Right.

So, I mean, I feel like the directions were pretty clear.

Yeah.

And he drew a picture, and she drew a picture.

And it's funny if you see the picture because it is, like, kind of cattywampus.

Like, it's kind of crooked.

Yeah.

And they drew it exactly the same.

Crooked way they did.

You know, maybe they did a tracer.

I don't know what they did, but they did make it look exactly like they did.

But, like, look at the scale too.

They didn't even scale it to the.

Size of the cake.

It's tiny.

It's like the size of a.

Post it in the middle of the cake.

In the middle of this enormous sheet cake.

So, yeah, I'm gonna say the boob is the bakery and that employee.

Yeah.

Not the man.

There's your boobs in the news.

Boobs in the news.

Boobs in the news.

Boobs in the news.

So what I'm hearing from you, Angela, we're back.

What I'm hearing is that hustle culture is kind of killing us slowly.

Right.

And it's not leaving room for any spontaneity, any play, any intimacy, whether that be sex or otherwise.

So is that the first key to re.

Establishing intimacy with your partner is to just stop the bleeding with the hustle?

Yeah, stop.

Go, go, go.

Do, do, do.

Never stop.

Never surrender and move towards.

How do I give myself space for peace every day?

And even beyond peace?

Play.

So it's funny, there's this book that one of my supervisees is reading called the Relaxed Woman.

And I think it's a good start.

Like, it's like, hey, how do you give yourself time for peace every day?

But beyond it or.

And beyond peace, how do you give yourself time for play?

Joy, laughter.

Like, adults have lost the ability to play.

Like, they don't even know how.

It's surprising to me how often I'm just talking to couples about flirting and playing and, like, taking time.

Like, play a game.

I don't know.

Play a Game as a family.

Like, instead of scheduling yourself so tight in your day and like, getting your kids in every single activity, like, say no to some things.

And when you really experience a quality of life, it looks like, okay, I'm done, and I'm really done.

And if I'm going to hang with my kids tonight, I'm going to, like, hang and relax a little bit and have, I don't know, like a fun conversation with them.

Or maybe we're going to go roller skating together tonight.

And when couples and individuals develop a daily lifestyle of I'm not going to let work destroy me, I'm going to have a whole quality life.

Then every day there's room for peace, and every day there's room for play.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but I think people don't know how to create space in their schedules anymore.

Sacrificing today for the potential for tomorrow.

I think people really struggle.

Like you said, it's so deeply ingrained at this point, this hustle culture, that so, I mean, re establishing.

I was thinking about what you said, though.

Right.

So you just answered your question, which is how they do it is by prioritizing pleasure.

First you have to say no to the things that are preventing you from peace and joy, and then you prioritize pleasure.

And that's really all it is.

It's a reprioritization.

That doesn't mean we don't work.

I work, I run a business.

I still have to do this.

Right.

But it means that in addition to work, pleasure and peace are priorities too.

And it means it's a part of a conversation every day.

Not just when we remember or when we're so burnt out that we're falling apart.

No, every day we prioritize peace and pleasure.

And that's really all it is.

It's a returning attention towards what can actually create the quality life.

Which then, yes, makes people want to have sex more.

Because if you think about it, when you did have sex more, you were bored more.

That's true.

I have some really good memories, like with my husband, and it was always born out of boredom.

And I think that's what I mean.

For me, personally, I struggle with the hustle and go.

Because it's like from the moment I wake up, it's like I have this list of things I feel like I need to accomplish before I even get my foot in the door at work.

And then it's like, you work all day and then it's like you come home and it's like you have to do this, this and this.

And so it's like, well, you're very regimented too.

Like, you have a lot of discipline, which I admire because I'm like.

But I feel like in some ways that is against me because I feel like I have to do all of these things every day.

And then it's really hard for me to do what you're talking about.

Carving out time for relaxation.

And even like my lunch break at school, it's like, hurry up, eat your food and like shovel the food in, because I have 25 minutes, you know, so it's just like every part of my day is busy, so it's hard to stop.

And like, just take some deep breaths and like, calm down.

Because then it's like you get home and there's like, you know, we're going here, we're going there, we're going here.

Well, what I want to switch gears a minute to the issue of libido.

I totally get making space for play and joy and maybe even a little boredom to kind of reignite our desire to be with each other.

You know, especially like a lot of women post cancer, they're dealing with being put in medical menopause, or maybe they're at that general age anyway, and their libido tanks and now their husband wants it more than they do.

And it's like causing this disruption in the relationship because the man feels rejected.

The woman's kind of like, I'm just tired, like, I'm exhausted, right?

And I don't have desire.

And we're trying to figure out what to do about it, right?

Because women feel bad.

I've never met a woman that's like, I feel great withholding sex from my husband.

Like, nobody feels good about that.

But what do you see and what do you think is the answer to that when there's chemical things going on as well as mental?

Well, when people work with me, I have a built to last framework which teaches people how to heal in mind, body, heart, soul and spirit.

And so the first thing we shift is mind, which is the perspective of sex, that it has to look a certain way.

And that perspective is the American sex box, which is we kiss a little, we touch a little, sometimes there's oral sex and then there's penetration, and that's the only sex that counts.

That's the American sex box.

And it's super limiting because when things happen, like cancer or any pain conditions or any life, conditions like problems are a part of life, sexual problems are a part of life.

Couples who are stuck in that box lose access to intimacy and pleasure.

So what I teach in my model is how to embrace creative sexuality, which, again, requires you to have access to peace and play.

You can't be creative if you don't have access to peace and play.

So everybody who works with me learns a whole quality of life change in all of those spaces.

Mind, body, heart, soul, and spirit.

And as they start to create that change, they realize that, oh, intimacy can look a lot of ways.

We can be romantically touching, we can be cuddling, we can be kissing.

There's oral play.

There's different toys we can play with.

There's just touch itself is pleasurable and peaceful.

Like, me and my partner were just in a conflict this last week, and we finally got to some good bottom lines and resolutions.

And one of the first things I wanted, I asked him was like, hey, give me a massage.

I just would like to feel connected to you.

That's intimacy.

Well, let me.

Let me ask you this, because I would be curious your thoughts on this.

A lot of women, and I'm.

I've been guilty of this.

It's like we don't.

We shy away from physical touch, which I think men recognize and feel rejected by just normal touch.

Not even anything that's overtly sexual, because we're worried that it comes with an expectation.

Right.

If I'm laying in bed exhausted and my husband starts to rub my back, I know what he's thinking, and I'm immediately, like, put on the defensive, right?

Because it's not a bid for connection in my mind, it's a bid for sex.

And those are two different things.

And so is part of this reestablishing physical touch without expectation during the day to where it's not immediately into fight or flight.

If you're exhausted and not in the mood at night, how do you navigate that?

Yeah, so it's a mix of things.

One is the sex act could be massage.

Like, that could be the end.

If you're in the sex box, sex has to end in penetration or it doesn't count.

But if you're in creative sex model, which is the model I teach, then the intimacy could just be the massage or the touch.

So in actual acts, the sex can just look completely different and be varied based on what both people are coming to the table comfortable with.

But then also, yes, like, no pressure.

Intimacy throughout the day that brings pleasure is a part of it too.

And then something I just want to point out is you've said I'm guilty and I want you to hear language like that means that you feel like you're doing something wrong when really your nervous system is shutting down, your body is protecting you from overload.

When we are in burnout, your body shuts down to protect itself.

And that's not something to feel guilty about.

It's something to pay attention to and reprioritize so that your body's not constantly in shutdown.

But we have trained everybody to feel guilty for what their body is naturally wired to do.

So is that a communication opportunity?

Like, how do you suggest in that situation somebody respond, well, that's what I.

That's what my model teaches.

So I. I teach them how to heal in mind by neutralizing sex messages.

Okay, so sex is a natural, neutral part of life rather than seeing it as negative or positive.

Just learning to create a neutral and natural relationship.

Relationship with sex first and body.

Learning how to work with your nervous system and get it out of that fight or flight regularly.

Like, so I end up working with every couple through burnout, from burnout to passion.

And what that looks like is moving from constant go, go, go, do, do, do, to realizing, oh, I need a whole quality of life to have a whole quality sex life.

Yeah, I do think that it's important what you're saying to kind of recreate that play in our life, which will help us be more creative and have that time with our partners.

But my question for you is, do you have any advice for, like, the breast cancer survivor who is having a hard time accepting their body and the changes that have gone on and they no longer feel attractive or comfortable in their own body?

And so how do you.

Do you have any advice for how to kind of handle that mind shift.

Or what to do goes back to the like.

So I think a lot of people are in a very abusive relationship with their bodies.

So go with me on this.

We're trying to control it, to do this and make it do that.

And I'm really teaching people a collaborative relationship with their body.

What that means is I work with my body where it's at today.

And if this is the energy you have to give today, I'm working with you exactly where you're at.

I'm not trying to strong arm you.

I'm not treating you like shit because you're not this, that, or the other.

But it's like we're trying to control our bodies instead of work like a team with our bodies.

And a good relationship with your body means when your body's struggling, you don't get mad at it or you don't treat it like crap because it's not doing what it's supposed to do, which is controlling.

It's a very abusive relationship.

You learn how to accept it for where it's at, love it for what it's capable of doing, and give it space to breathe.

And so for the person who's struggling with breast cancer, I would invite them to just start creating a more kind and gentle relationship with their body.

Because what ends up happening is people feel betrayed.

They feel betrayed by their body.

But even that idea of betrayal is that you ever had control to be with.

It's not your job to control your body.

It's your job to understand it and work well with it.

And your body's going to go through a lot in this world, not just cancer, but like, I've gone through so much.

I almost died in my senior year due to overactive thyroid.

And what I had to learn is to create a relationship, a collaborative relationship with it that helped it sustained.

Like, listen to my body support it.

And so it's basically changing the very nature of how we have been trained and like, basically taught how to work with our bodies.

And what people end up doing is just creating a more loving and accepting relationship, which then allows them to have a more loving and accepting relationship with sex and intimacy.

And like, this is what my body can do right now instead of, why can't you do this body?

You're supposed to do this.

And ah, you.

You failed me.

Like, no, your potty needed you and it needs you right now.

Yeah, I was gonna say, I. I do remember I had a pretty traumatic surgery on my arm and it went wrong, you know, I mean, like, the recovery was horrific.

And I was so frustrated, you know, and I was angry and I was frustrated and I was like, God, it's just another thing, right?

It's death of a thousand paper cuts when you get cancer because it's just never ending.

But then I got to this place where I thought, why are.

To your point?

Why are you fighting your own body?

This is you, you are your body, right?

And you're fighting yourself and you're creating this negative think space with your body.

Like you're at war with yourself.

Essentially.

I did this really weird thing where I apologized to my arm.

Like, I apologized to it.

I said, I'm so sorry.

I didn't know that this was surgery was going to result in this kind of trauma.

I feel terrible that I put you in this position.

I know you're trying really hard to recover and all I keep doing is berating you for what you're not doing.

Thank you.

That I still can use you.

I went through this whole conversation like my arm was an actual person.

It was weird because I actually felt a lot of peace and a lot of like, it was like peace with myself.

It was almost just like my body was just craving that love and that acceptance.

And when I gave it, it just kind of released me from all that tension and anger and that control.

And I wonder.

I mean, that sounds very much like what you.

That is exactly it.

That's exactly it.

It's finding.

I have this video on my YouTube channel that says your body protects itself, itself from you.

And essentially when we're abusing and berating our bodies, then it dissociates from us, which then makes us more at risk for doing things to cause more injury and harm to it.

So when you do that, that's exactly what I mean.

By creating a relationship with your body, you get kinder, you accept it, you work with it.

Where it's at, it will heal, but it's way harder to heal with that emotional workload of like, why aren't you working?

And what's wrong with you?

And it really is.

It's just abuse.

We've learn to abuse ourselves.

And yes, everything you said, that's.

That's exactly what I'm teaching.

Well, disassociation is an interesting concept to me too, because I do think a lot of survivors of any major medical illness or trauma, it's like we do.

We disassociate from ourselves and then it's any wonder that we can't relate to another human being.

If you can't love and accept yourself, then how are you supposed to love and accept other people?

Well, right, so it just seems like this very layered issue that requires more care.

And it just doesn't feel like society gives voice to these human issues.

I mean, your whole job exists.

It's such a niche.

I mean, who's talking about this really?

I mean, you see sex therapists too, and it conjures up all kinds of things, right?

You're sitting there going, what's a sex therapist?

That sounds super kink.

You know, I mean, I just.

I mean, thinking about what you said for your hand or your arm, I've had women who needed to create a new relationship with their vulva or their clitoris because if they've been abusing it internally, this is this where mind and body have to have healing in order to then have conversations where you can actually clarify Boundaries with a partner.

Because if you think about this.

So, like, yeah, I've had women who've needed to, like, reconnect to their clitoris and apologize to it for how they treated it or reconnect to their vulva for situations that they put their vulvas and that were not safe or not comfortable.

But really you have to heal in mind and body and be kind to yourself so that you can start to say, hey, I need this boundary to be positive sexually.

I need this for me in my body to, like, even enjoy this sexual thing.

But essentially you've got all this dissociation happening.

And then humans are essentially having sexual experiences that they're creating new traumas and little.

I mean, little T's and big T's, right?

Because like, we.

We know we're supposed to be sexual with our partner, but being sexual requires a mind, body, presence to even set boundaries, to even say, this is what I like or don't like.

And there's all these people who are just having obligatory sex because they feel like they have to, but they don't have a connection in their mind and body.

And so they're not enjoying it.

And it causes desire to completely tank because you can't.

You can't learn what you like or what feels good if you're not present in your mind or body.

You just tolerate it, and then eventually you get over it and don't want to do it anymore.

I mean, at the end of the day.

And we'll lead into our second sponsor before you give your final words, but it just seems like mind is the key to the body.

What's interesting is, as I teach it, I teach both.

I start in the mind because I think it's easier for people to do thoughts, but in body, I'm really teaching sensations and how to recognize different sensations and, like, keep your body essentially online, which is when you're in parasympathetic nervous system.

And that is its own process that is like, yes, you need the mind to be kind to you as you start doing that process.

But they're both like kind of.

They're connected and they're kind of separate in the ways that they like.

The approach is done.

I should say, okay, well, I want.

I want people to know where they can find you.

But before you give that information, let's hear from our second sponsor.

Thrive in is a proud sponsor of Face Through Fire.

Thrivent believes money is a tool, not a goal.

The Gateway financial group with Thrivent is local to the St. Louis area and can work with you to create a financial strategy that reflects your priorities and helps you protect the things that matter to you, like family and giving back.

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All right, we're back.

Angela, where can people find you?

Openbedroom doors.com.

That's the easiest way for them to get in touch with you and find out more about you and what you offer.

Any last words for those listening that are struggling with intimacy, post cancer or just generally in life, it's okay to.

Not know things and it's okay to be figuring it out.

Be kind to yourself as you.

As you figure out your next phase in life because this is a very painful time.

But it is okay to not know what you're doing and it's okay to figure it out as you go.

Oh, I love that.

Yeah.

Well, thank you so much for being here.

Until next time, guys.

See ya.

Thank you for being a listener of the Besties with Breasties podcast.

If this podcast had a positive impact on your journey, leave us a review or consider becoming a supporter.

You can donate with the link in the show notes or@faiththroughfire.org.

Sam.