S6E19: I Survived Cancer. Can We Survive Betrayal? A Conversation About Rebuilding Intimacy

Welcome to the Besties With Breasties podcast.

I'm Beth Wilmes, author, speaker, and founder of a human investment organization otherwise known as a nonprofit called Faith Through Fire.

Our mission is to reduce the fear and anxiety breast cancer patients feel and replace it with hope and a path toward thriving.

I'm Jess, a mom of two, former college soccer player, elementary PE teacher and fitness enthusiast.

I was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer just before my 40th birthday.

And I'm Jamie, researcher, retired professional boxer and breast cancer survivor who keeps life busy and joyful with a funny farm of animals, a loving family, and a big heart to serve others.

This podcast is about our experiences with.

Breast cancer and life after as young survivors and moms.

All right, today we are talking with Angela Skiru.

She has a Master of Education and licensed marriage and family therapist supervisor.

She's also a certified sex therapist supervisor.

She is nationally recognized as a relationship and sex therapist, author, speaker, educator, and founder of Open Bedroom Doors.

Love it.

This is the second conversation we've had with Angela.

The first time was kind of reestablishing intimacy after cancer, and now we're talking to her again about overcoming infidelity, probably just generally and then also in the context of a breast cancer diagnosis.

So today we're going to talk about can a relationship really recover after an affair?

What it takes to rebuild trust and understanding the root cause without excusing the behavior.

But before we get to it with Angela, let's hear from our first sponsor.

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Welcome back, Angela.

Thanks for joining us for our second episode.

We just had too much to go through to just stop at one episode.

That's how I feel about intimacy.

And, you know, post cancer, but just generally in life.

Don't you agree, Jess?

For sure.

I mean, I feel like this is something that every person that goes through a breast cancer journey deals with.

Don't you miss?

We're talking about infidelity today, people.

But I'm going to jump back to the podcast that we just finished with Angela about intimacy.

Do you remember how easy it was to have intimacy when you're younger?

Oh, my goodness, yes.

And now it just feels so hard.

It feels so hard.

And I just.

I.

Why is that, Angela?

Is that strictly hormones?

Is it, like, why was it so fun and exciting and something that you looked forward to, you know, at the beginning of your evening, knowing how it was going to end?

Right.

And now it's just like, am I going to have enough energy?

Well, I mean, we were talking a lot about burnout, and so there's an element to it that is that people are.

People are taking on too much.

And a level of intimacy is that you.

You don't have as many responsibilities to deal with.

Actually, one thing for those of you who do go on vacations, think of, like, how you.

You struggle to have sex every day, but, like, suddenly you get on vacation and, like, even your mindset shifts.

You're like, I'm gonna take my time.

Nobody gets to tell me what to do.

Responsibilities are gone.

Like, there's a way that you change the way you talk and experience life on vacation.

True.

I could totally picture that.

I am so much more fun on vacation.

And side note, tmi.

Here's a tmi, but this is.

I also poop great when I'm on vacation.

And I know, I know.

Because your mind's pooping.

Because my stress level is so low.

It's like, I unplug from work.

I don't think about anybody else.

So my sex life improves, as do my bowels when go on vacation.

So you are so right.

We all need to go on vacation.

That's right.

Yeah.

It's because you're in your parasympathetic nervous system, which is your pause and plan, rest and digest, and you actually engage in more mindful pooping.

That's what I call that.

Oh, hilarious.

I don't even have to think about it, Angela.

It just happens, which for me is just rare in everyday life.

It's just lovely.

Okay?

That's what happens.

In your body when you're present.

Exactly, exactly.

That's a terrible lead in for infidelity.

But, you know, we're going to say.

We're going to be talking about shit.

Right?

Right, right, right.

Exact.

Here's the thing.

Okay?

So this is about overcoming infidelity and rebuilding trust with your partner.

And one of the things I have noticed, I don't know if it's related to breast cancer.

We have a lot of breast cancer survivors who have experienced infidelity in the aftermath of cancer.

And so they correlate the two.

They correlate the infidelity with the cancer diagnosis.

I'm not convinced that they're related because I think women immediately go to, I'm not the same, I don't want it as much.

My body's different.

And therefore they cheated.

And I don't know if that's fair.

I think that there's something more going on.

So what do you think, Angela?

Like, where do you.

Where do you see couples get off track?

Are most of them in loving relationships and then something just happens?

Is it really that superficial based on the partner's availability to them at that moment in time?

Like, what are your thoughts on infidelity?

Yeah.

So there's a reason that as a sex therapist, I've written an infidelity book, because there's two reasons people come into couples therapy and one is sex problems and one is infidelity.

Here's my book, helping couples overcome infidelity.

Okay.

What the reason is goes back to the American sex box I was talking about last episode.

So let me reframe it again.

The American sex box is a very limited definition of what good sex could be.

And it basically is we kiss a little, we touch a little.

Sometimes there's oral sex, but not always, and then there's penetration and that's it.

And that's the only sex that can count.

And that box limits people when problems happen.

And so as a result of people being humans and having problems in day to day life, as soon as a problem like cancer or financial problems or, you know, like, think any problem that happens in your life hits your sex life, if you are limited to that small box, that it's like we can't have sex at all.

Now let's go back a bit.

I'm going to do a back view to childhood too, because this goes all the way back to how we were raised as well.

So we also are raised in a society where we don't talk about sex in any sort of real or safe way.

For people it's always either shame or fear based or not at all.

Like that's, that's basically it.

Or you can you.

Some people do get the puberty talk.

Some people, like in my school we got like two classes.

There was puberty for girls and puberty for boys, but we were split up, so we're never taught to talk to the other partner, like ever.

And then that's it, that's all you got.

So you get this whole society of people who don't know how to talk about sex in any sort of real or healthy way.

And you get whatever education people do have is either shame or fear based or not at all.

And so then people fill in the blanks and guess what the implicit message that's sent is sex isn't okay to talk about.

So then they become these adults who are in relationship with each other and suddenly you throw them in the fire and you're like, figure it out.

Guys have a great time.

So they figure some things out.

Don't get me wrong, people eventually do have sex and they have kids, but like there's a lot of problems that happen as a result.

And then if you, one, don't know how to talk about sex and two, you're limited to the sex box, then as soon as sexual problems happen, which they happen for every single person, as soon as the problems happen, then they, they're in shame and they self implode.

Like there's something wrong with me or there's something wrong with you.

So you can either implode or explode when you're in shame.

Those are the only two options.

Shame.

Once you.

Shame.

That's the word, right?

So instead of it being like this is a sexual problem, but let's find a way to talk and figure this out that works for us, which is what would happen if it was in the parasympathetic nervous system, that peaceful part of your nervous system.

Sex is completely in fight or flight, the sympathetic nervous system.

And people aren't talking about it.

Then they internalize, then they avoid, then they hide and they don't like.

It gets worse and worse.

And so yes.

So I was going to kind of ask you the difference between whether infidelity comes from emotional distance which then leads to physical distance, or physical distance that then leads to emotional distance.

It sounds like it could be either or both.

Men are socialized to feel more comfortable with sex but are abused for being emotional.

And women are socialized to feel more comfortable with emotions but are abused for being sexual.

And so then you have two adult humans and heterosexual couples who do not have access to part of their human life.

And so it's both.

And it ends up being we don't know how to talk to each other.

We split up in fourth and fifth grade, and we never came back together.

So I'm wondering then, when you're working with couples who have experienced.

Experienced infidelity, is it about teaching them on how to kind of make those bids for connection again to where they understand and start to kind of rebuild their communication skills?

Because it sounds like everybody's kind of operating within their own sphere, not given the tools to communicate properly, and then wondering why it's not working.

Sure.

So this is why I have my book in front of me, Because I have a whole framework for how I guide couples through infidelity.

When they first come to me, it's just so painful.

Really, all I'm doing is crisis management when people first come.

So my first chapter, the first milestone of the book, is reducing the impact of the affair.

Once people are in it, they're so far in fight or flight, they're very reactive, and they're just essentially grasping for pieces because everything's falling apart around them.

So when couples come in to work on infidelity, my only goal is making sure that the choices they make don't make the situation worse.

And so reducing the impact may look like giving them a timeline for how long it takes to really heal from an infidelity, helping them each to acknowledge the pain.

I split them up and I spend some time, like, so first I meet as a couple, but then in the second session, I split them up to just meet each of them where they're at because they both typically have a lot of pain they've been carrying.

And then there's guilt.

So it's interesting is the person who cheated feels all kinds of guilt because they felt powerless to do anything about what happened.

Like, what would tie this into cancer, right?

So, like, they've got a partner who's struggling.

They feel guilty because they're still feeling sexual.

They don't know how to talk to their partner, so they've felt alone and not known what to do.

And so I need a space to talk to them about, like, feeling abandoned in the relationship.

But then for the person who is hurt, I need a separate space because sometimes talking about that in front of the person who was cheated on is, like, the most painful thing to hear.

And so in a separate session, I might talk to the person who was hurt about, like, how they feel abandoned now.

Because they were cheated on.

And, like, again, we were talking about how you.

You can feel like your body betrayed you.

So it's like there's a body betrayal, now there's the partner betrayal.

And it feels like just everything falls apart around you.

And so really, I try to give each of them a space to process some of that pain.

But then I walk through a whole process of.

Like, one of my chapters is on clarity, like, helping people understand what led to the affair, how to choose whether to stay or leave.

So it's interesting, I think people ask that question for sometimes years after an affair.

Like, should I stay?

Should I leave?

Is this the right situation?

And I think it's reasonable because, you know, if you think about it like, everything that you once trusted is gone.

And so there's really a process of figuring out how to stay.

And if you can stay.

Do you think that if somebody cheats, they should come clean with their partner?

Or are there circumstances where maybe you don't.

If, you know, it was like, a one and done, and it would just destroy the marriage.

I think that partners can tell when you haven't.

Unless you're a narcissist.

Like, you think they can sense that somebody is.

Oh, they can.

I've watched couples for so long now they can tell when people are still being dishonest, and it prevents healing.

The only ones who are good at lying are narcissists.

Oh, yeah, the chronic.

That was gonna be my other question.

I'm like, when people are contemplating whether to leave or stay.

For me, it would be very easy.

If this is a chronic issue with you that you have unresolved, you know, trauma or something, there's something wrong with you, right?

If you're doing this chronically, there's something wrong with you.

I tend to think that if it's, you know, something that happens in a loving relationship, you gotta look at the underlying causes that led the person to betray you.

Cause that's not their typical character.

And that's a different conversation.

I would just broaden it to say there's either something wrong with the person or there's something wrong with the system of the relationship.

And every chapter, I write a good story and a bad story that I still tried to find a way to help couples through.

But, like, that's the fun part.

It's like, oh, my God, like, what did they do?

So, like, for chronic cheaters, there really are people who still stay together, but it's just a shattered marriage, and it ends up being a shell of a marriage, basically.

But how people stay is by basically burying their head in the sand.

Right.

So there are people who are still in chronic cheating marriages, but they basically turn a blind eye because there's other things in the marriage that are still serving them.

Like financial.

Usually it's financial, Right.

So it's one of those, like, at.

Which point I lose all empathy.

Yeah, well, I mean, that's why I'm.

Not in your business, because I would be like, no, don't feel bad for you.

Yeah, but you have.

Maybe you have money that you could leave, but not every person can.

Right.

Like, you guys gotta look at, like, different socioeconomic statuses.

There's situations where people have been, like, people don't have the skills to leave and have a job on their own.

They don't know how to divorce.

Or the abuse is so bad that, like, they're.

They're terrified to leave.

So I just.

I have a lot of compassion for people in these different situations.

You essentially, I see infidelity.

Like, you had this mirror and you just broke it.

You just shattered it to the ground.

So you literally cannot have the same marriage after infidelity that you once did.

You can take those pieces and build something new, and usually it's like a new art form of sorts, but you cannot have the old marriage, and you don't want the old marriage.

Well, that's the same thing with cancer.

Once you have cancer, you can't go back to the person you were before.

That person doesn't exist anymore.

So now you're building a new version of yourself.

And whether that's a better version is completely up to you.

Right.

I know many couples that suffered infidelity in their marriages, and they built back stronger.

And I think it's awesome that they did the work that they examined what was going wrong, like you said, either systematically or just emotionally or unresolved traumas and all the things.

Right.

And then they decided as a team to approach that together.

I think that's amazing.

Well, and I want to track back to that original question of should you tell or not?

The ones who make it get very raw and honest with each other.

And that doesn't mean they're not mean to each other, but they're very honest on both sides.

And they start having very real conversations, including about what happened with the affair and what led to it.

And so those couples who can really face it with some kindness and compassion then start making a better relationship, but the ones who withhold their partners absolutely can feel it and sense it.

And I can sense it Too.

But I don't.

Like, as the therapist, it's not my job to be like, you're lying.

Because, of course, you know, are they going to do your job?

That's exactly what I'd be doing here.

To point that out exact.

No, nobody does that.

But I can sense like, okay, something's still being withheld here because my skills are effective.

Actually, I've.

I've been working on this for 20 years.

So when people are doing their part to be honest and direct with each other and also heal their wounds, then they do become better than ever.

But it's like, I can say.

I can tell exactly in the process when somebody has started to talk to the other partner or when something is being kept because it impacts the.

The ability of the skill to really heal the couple.

Okay, interesting.

I want to talk about going into that, understanding the root cause.

But before we do that, you guys want to do Boobs in the News?

Yes.

Let's do it.

Boobs in the News is a fun segment where we read funny tweets by real people or ridiculous news stories.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs in the news, baby.

All right, here it is.

Hit me.

All right, this is.

This has happened to many people.

Uh, oh, I've heard.

I've.

I've heard this story happen before, but this just happened this month.

So the name of this news article is camp visitor falls into toilet and gets stuck.

Oh, no.

Like, in a latrine, like, outhouse type situation.

I mean, it was at a campground, so I'm gonna think, yes.

And I literally.

That idea of falling into, like, a gross, gross, disgusting, porta Potty type situation.

I think I'd be scarred for life and have to go to therapy.

Do you fall in?

Well, it says a visitor to a popular California campground accidentally dropped his sunglasses into a camp toilet and tried to retrieve them.

Oh, no way.

Maybe an iPhone.

Maybe an iPhone.

Maybe.

I say maybe.

And even then, I don't.

I don't think I could do it.

I don't know.

So, yeah, I couldn't do it.

Be like, that's gone.

I would be vomiting.

So he dropped his sunglasses, tried to retrieve them.

It ended exactly how you think it would.

Emergency.

So he went head first.

He went first.

Emergency crews had to fish him out.

Oh, no.

They had to call.

Oh, my gosh.

The Fresno County Sheriff's office said the visitor to Camp Edison in Sierra Nevada foothills tumbled into the vault toilet and required a confined space rescue.

Do you know what would happen if I was in that toilet?

Like, that oh, my God.

Me too.

I like.

You ever see those reels where somebody gets grossed out and they start gagging?

It is the funniest thing.

Yeah, I.

That is.

I can't even believe that this happens all the time.

I would be like, just whatever.

Oh.

This person did not speak English.

It said, via a Spanish translator.

They advised that the subject had fallen into a chemical storage tank.

Luckily, first responders got him out in about 15 minutes, and he wasn't worse for wear, although the California fire department did hose him down.

Well, thankfully, the funny part about how they end this is it's unclear if he got his sunglasses back.

Oh, my gosh.

I mean, if I fall into the toilet, I'm get.

Those things are coming out with me.

You're fishing around, looking for them.

Oh, my God.

Did you know they probably sink?

Don't you think you have to get lots of shots?

Well, that's what I was like.

How do you get all of that gunk and detox from falling into.

I think I would have.

Because all the chemicals and the feces, like, gross.

I'm, like, envisioning, like, Shawshank Redemption where he has to go through the sewer pipe, you know, and climb through it and just.

But I think this is almost worse.

Yeah.

Because you're inside it.

I mean, I guess he was climbing through.

Yes.

There's no out.

Right.

You're like, think of a swimming.

You're, like, in a swimming pool of.

But a small one.

Oh, God.

And there's no place to go.

I'm very anti porta Potty.

Like, how do you feel about porta potties?

Oh, I will use them.

You will?

I will.

I.

Under duress, I will use them.

I prefer, if I'm in that situation, to just find a tree.

I know that sounds really.

No, I mean.

But I would much rather just be out in nature than in the porta Potty.

If I have to go.

Yeah.

And there's, like, people around, then I obviously will go in the port.

I'm out.

Lindenwood here for a second.

My kids run track, and every time we go to, like, a track meet at a school, they all have regular bathrooms with regular toilets and air conditioning.

Lindenwood has that beautiful campus, and every single.

They.

All they have is latrines.

Really?

It's so gross.

I'm actually surprised.

I know.

That's what I'm saying.

The amount of money that that school now brings in.

And I think they're division one now, and they've put all this time and effort into their sports programs.

And you go to a track meet, which is an all day affair, so you're gonna use the bathrooms.

And if you're a runner, you have like the runner's hoops.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So it's gross.

Oh, it's so gross.

So there's like eight porta potties, and everybody's in line for them.

And after all day use, it is absolutely repulsive.

And so I have a thing about porta potties anyway.

I have to be under absolute duress to do it, but there you have no choice.

So then I'm kind of like, you know, I'm.

I go in and I hope that they have the hand sanitizer.

No, there's no hand sanitizer on the wall.

So then you're like, okay, I'm dealing with like a code red here.

Yeah, Right.

And I mean, there's no way, unless I had diarrhea, that I'm pooping.

I'll just hold it, you know what I mean?

And be miserable.

But then I'm bracing myself against the back because I'll squat.

I'm not sitting.

Oh, no.

Are you sitting?

No.

So then as a woman, you have to worry about dribble.

Oh, yeah.

So then it's like if you dribble, then you feel gross the rest of the day, right?

You have no hand sanitizer.

It's disgusting.

I mean, are you just leaving the track meet then so you can go to a gas station?

So I did do that last time, and it sucked because I gave up my parking spot.

And then you had to park all the way.

And then I had to park all the way down the hill.

So I don't know.

Like, I mean, this should have been a boobs in the news on its own.

Lindenwood.

Right?

Like, I'm calling you out.

Get some freaking bathrooms.

Like, you know, splurge for the freaking concrete bathroom toilet situation.

Right?

You're too good for this.

Too good.

There's your bibs.

Bibs.

And then is bibs and the news.

Okay, we're back.

So what I'm hearing from you, Angela, is.

I mean, this is so par for the course.

Right?

It's not just sexual and it's not just emotional.

It's like this inner working that you have to kind of figure out what's going on.

And there's always an understory.

It sounds like, right.

There's always an understory for both partners.

Is there an accountability piece for both people in the relationship?

And the stepping out is just kind of a product of that or you.

Know what I mean?

Like, where's the distribution of blame here from a therapeutic standpoint?

Well, I'm a big fan of responsibility and accountability, and I don't.

What I have to be very careful with in terms of messaging is that the person who was cheated on blame themselves for the affair.

So for cheating, whoever cheated, that's their responsibility, that they are the ones who took those actions.

And so they do need to own the choices they made because they could have talked to their partner and said, I need help.

Talked to their partner and said, I need therapy.

Maybe decided, you know what, this isn't working for me.

Can we come up with something like that?

There were many options they could have taken other than cheating.

And so that person 100% needs to take ownership for the choices they made to step out of the marriage.

And it's a mess they both have to solve.

So when they.

When you bring the other partner in, I'm very careful to make sure they don't blame themselves for cheating, but that when they're taking ownership, they're taking ownership for.

Have we created a safe environment for talking to each other?

Was therapy brought up at some point, but I shut it down because I wasn't willing, because sometimes that happens where people are seeking help and they don't get support.

Are there ways that we haven't learned to communicate that is effectively.

Are there things, intimacy wise, that I've struggled with personally that I need to grow in?

Right.

And so, and it's interesting because every time I have a sex talk in infidelity treatment, then trust issues come up every single time.

Like, it's this interesting, like, we'll start a sex talk and then somebody brings up, like, the struggle and trust because they're intricately intertwined.

Right.

Trust outside sexual trust.

It's like trust in other ways.

I trust you in general, in life.

Yeah.

Trust and sex are intertwined, which is, again, I said this in the last training, but.

Or podcast, but basically, like, when I hear people say, you know, how do you integrate sexual health into mental health?

And I'm like, it is mental health.

Like, everything I do when I talk about sex covers everything else when it comes to mental health, like emotion regulation and the way we treat ourselves internally and how couples work together as a team and create a safe environment for communication.

Like, sexual health is mental health.

And I want everyone to hear that forever.

I've seen it where sometimes, like, infidelity is just like, the byproduct.

But like, I'm seeing a lot of people, especially in Middle age, who are, for the first time in their lives, dealing with depression.

And it's like.

And I'm wondering how often you think undiagnosed or untreated depression is often at the foundation of these relationship problems, both with just generalized intimacy, then infidelity, the communication issues.

Because I am seeing this a lot in midlife, where either the wife or the husband is just completely baffled by their spouse's change in demeanor.

They're like, I know they love me, but.

And it just, like, when they describe how they're acting, my first thought is like, oh, they're depressed.

They're showing signs of depression.

And then how much does that spiral into these other behaviors?

Like, do you see that a lot?

So in the book, I tell the story that starts every infidelity.

And it sounds like this.

So somehow the couple faces death somehow in some way, right?

So cancer is one version of death.

Sometimes it's a parent who dies.

Sometimes it's like a really close loved one.

But they're somewhere in their 40s, and somehow they face death as a teen.

And from there, then there's this period of time where, like, death changes people, right?

Like, when.

When we face death, it breathes new life into our.

Into our experience, right?

And so what that means is that one person, like, so we change in our identities over time.

And so one person starts to grow as a result of facing death, and the other person maybe, like, goes into that depressive mode where it, like, it's like, wow, this changed me forever.

And I don't know how to connect with this.

So it.

It starts with a type of grief that then moves into depression of sorts.

And then you've got two people whose identities have essentially diverged.

And then.

And then when they're diverged, usually it's the depressed one that then meets another person in a similar walk of life.

Because literally everybody's on repeat like this.

This story repeats over and over again to the point that it's the one story I tell and everybody'.

That was my story.

And I'm like, I know because it's all of your story.

Yeah, we think we're so unique.

20 Years.

Yeah, we always think we're so unique.

And it's like, no, we're not.

We're big, dumb animals that keep doing.

The same things back to that burnout, right?

Because what happens in the 40s is you suddenly look around and you're like, you've had this big death experience.

You're like, is this all there is?

Like, is this all there is left in life.

I'm just going to work until I die, and I'm not what.

What is on the other side?

And so what ends up happening is this person diverges with the path of another person who's going through the same experience.

They're usually both married, and they start commiserating and saying, yeah, I think there's something on the other side of life.

And they're right, there is something on the other side of life.

But they're approaching, like, they end up in this situation in a unhealthy way for the current relationship instead of.

Again, what I'm trying to change the world with is like, we've got to shift this hustle culture shit that's really killing us because it kills us inside, too.

And then when you face death and you realize there's only so much life to live, I only have so many minutes on this earth.

My person, whoever this person is, died, or we're facing cancer, death is imminent.

And here we are just, like, churning through life and hustling, and I never smile.

Like, that's what happens.

And then, like, suddenly, okay, so this other person comes in your path and they're breathing a little life into you.

You realize, like, wow, maybe there is something else out there.

And they start feeling good about themselves for the first time ever.

And they haven't felt that way with their partner in years.

And no, I'm not.

I'm never condoning cheating.

I never want that.

But this is how it happens.

And so suddenly, this other person's giving them attention, and they're starting to feel alive again, and they realize I want more.

And then they keep kind of crossing boundaries and making choices.

And it's almost like.

It's like in the fight flight, it's reactive because when you ask them, I'll ask them all the time, like, do you know, Like, I stopped asking why?

Because I already know the answer now.

But back in the day when I would ask, why did it happen or how did it happen?

They would be, I don't know, it just happened so fast.

And it's because it's reactive.

It's reactive to all this pain and, like, fear and end of life experience they're facing.

And they just.

So what I'm hearing is like, midlife crisis is like a juncture where you want to be real careful.

Yeah, midlife crisis and facing death.

But I mean, really what I want to go go back to is I'm trying to teach people how to have a quality of life from the beginning, you know?

That there are ways to prevent this.

It doesn't have to end in infidelity, but it does because, again, people don't know how to talk about sex and relationships in a way that's like quality.

They.

They're literally living in hustle culture, and they're getting so burnt out that by the time they have someone cross their path that breathes just a little life in them, they're like.

It's like a breath of fresh air.

And they've been dying inside for years.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Well, I want to.

I want to end with your book again, where people can buy it, and also your podcast.

But before we do that, let's hear from our second sponsor.

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All right, we are back.

Thank you so much, Angela, for spending some time with us talking about some of these really tough topics.

What are your final words?

Do you have anything in particular you want to leave our audience with today?

They're meant to be these poignant words.

You know, I love all these couples.

I love all of you.

And really, that's my only goal in this world, is to leave a legacy of love.

With every step I take, with every course I teach, I wanna.

I don't just wanna leave a legacy myself, though.

I wanna teach my clients and couples how to leave that legacy too.

Because what.

No matter what, when you die, you leave a legacy.

You leave a mark on this world.

And so I ask, I invite you to consider joining me and leaving a legacy of love.

I love that.

Really quickly, where can they find your book and say the title again?

Where they can find it and where can they find your podcast?

So everything can be found at my website, openbedroomdoors.com there's a whole page of my books and I have several.

I also have a course for couples there and for the show, if they also want to go to YouTube, they can go to YouTube.com penbedroomdoors so it's always open bedroom doors, Instagram, open bedroom doors.

Just look for the open bedroom doors.

You'll actually see a door just popping out.

So creative.

I love it.

Thank you so much, Angela.

Until next time guys.

See ya.

Thank you for being a listener of the Besties with Breasties podcast.

If this podcast had a positive impact on your journey, leave us a review or consider becoming a supporter.

You can donate with the link in the show notes or@faiththroughfire.org.

J.