S6E3: When Cancer Changes Your Friendships: What No One Tells You

Welcome to the Besties with Breasties podcast.

I'm Beth Wilmes, author, speaker, and founder of a human investment organization otherwise known as a nonprofit called Faith through Fire.

Our mission is to reduce the fear and anxiety breast cancer patients feel and replace it with hope and a path toward thriving.

I'm Jess, a mom of two, former college soccer player, elementary PE teacher, and fitness enthusiast.

I was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer just before my 40th birthday.

And I'm Jamie, researcher, retired professional boxer, and breast cancer survivor who keeps life busy and joyful with a funny farm of animals, a loving family, and a big heart to serve others.

This podcast is about our experiences with.

Breast cancer and life after as young survivors and moms.

All right.

Hey, Jess.

How you doing?

Great.

How are you?

I'm doing peachy.

Good.

Peachy.

I'm doing good.

I'm doing good.

So today we're going to talk about friendships, which I. I think of friendships the same way I think of cancer.

There are my friendships that I had before cancer, and then there are my friendships that I had post cancer, which are totally different things, obviously.

Right.

And most of my post cancer relationships are with other survivors.

Well, that's what I was just gonna ask you.

Is that why you just have different friends, because of the people you've met as you've gone through breast cancer?

And then I think it's.

I mean, I. I think.

I mean, it's all people from Faith Through Fire, like, post.

You know, I didn't really make any friends in the treatment chair.

Did you?

No, not at all.

Well, there was.

I mean, when I was going through treatment, it was still Covid, so it was.

I couldn't even have a visitor, so it was very much.

Yeah, you're on your own.

Isolated.

Yep.

Which I actually didn't mind.

I actually enjoyed that time.

You know what?

You're.

You're the second person that went through during COVID that's told me that they liked it that way, and I found that intriguing.

Although, I mean, I. I wasn't super into chatting people up when I went through either.

You know, most of the people that I was surrounded in or surrounded by in treatment were way older than I was.

I felt like a fish out of water.

I didn't have a lot of young survivors.

I remember one time when I went to chemo and there was another young mom there, and I was just so excited.

Not for her, but, you know.

Right.

It's like, I don't want you to be here.

But I was just, like, so unusual for Me to have somebody my own age in a chair next to me.

Did you have anybody young, near you?

You know, honestly, I was so focused and like in the zone that I.

There was one lady that I met that had a wig that I liked with a hat and she was probably the only person that I met because.

And she was younger, but I didn't really meet anybody.

We were kind of like spread out, but I was just so focused on, okay, what do I need to do?

Like, I was like real big into like this meditation and this visualization and then I just relaxed and read and watched movies and so I didn't really form friendships in the chair.

Yeah.

I do think that it's weird how it can kind of become a self care ritual to go to chemo.

Like you're putting this super toxic drug into your body that makes you feel terrible.

But at the same time the routine of it kind of, kind of soothed me in a certain weird way.

So, yeah, I kind of veered off track.

We're talking about friendships today, but you know how it goes once you start chatting.

So first we're going to talk about why some friendships shift or end.

Then we're going to talk about the Midwest.

Nice factor.

And then finally maybe grieving and reframing friendship loss, if that's something that you've dealt with.

But before we jump in, let's hear from our first sponsor.

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Let's talk about why some friendships shift or end.

I Mean, cancer changes everything.

And why do you think.

I mean, I don't know what your friends were like during cancer.

How were your friends and how were your friendships when you went through cancer?

Like, did you feel like it was just the same as always, or did you feel like there was a shift there because now you were going through something that they couldn't understand?

I felt like my friends were very supportive.

I didn't really notice anything like, shifting from other people towards me.

It was more me towards other people and maybe not even, like, close friends, but maybe like, acquaintances.

And I think that that shift happened because, like, for me, because I just noticed the energy and, like, the kind of complaining or, like, people being negative.

And I was like, ooh, I just don't want to be around that right now.

I just want to stay, like, in a positive environment.

And so I do think that.

I do think friendships change.

And I think for me, it was more just maybe putting, like, a distance between me and just some people just so I was around their negativity.

So you notice, like, personality traits that maybe you wouldn't have noticed before because you were so hyper focused on keeping a positive mindset.

That's interesting.

I mean, for me, it was.

I've always been a people pleaser, and I've always put other people's needs above my own.

And so going through cancer, I think, made me, like, really think about that.

And I was like, well, why don't I prioritize myself a little bit more?

And, you know, it just makes you kind of reevaluate everything.

Yeah.

I think for me, I just noticed.

It was more insightful for me to realize that a lot of my friendships were kind of based on surface level fun or shared hobbies, but not necessarily deep enough to handle, like, cancer.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, because I've always been kind of that person that's like, you know, I.

We're going to get into the Midwest, nice culture.

But it's like, you know, you put your big girl pants on and you kind of carry on.

And I come from an area where everybody kind of minds their own business and just handles their business and.

And we don't dig too deep into other people's, like, traumatic experiences because it's like, I think.

I think there's a few different reasons for that.

I think, one, they're, you know, not sure what to say.

They're worried about saying the wrong thing, and it's uncomfortable for them, you know, to.

Because I just think that there's a lot of intimacy, you Know, it's like childbirth.

Like, cancer is, like, so intimate and so traumatic that I just think it takes a friendship to another level.

And if you don't have those kind of deep bonds to handle something like that, I think it's gonna be.

For me, it was surprising to see, like, my friend, a lot of my friendships to realize that they were really kind of.

They were fun, and I loved them to death, but they were more superficial and less deep.

I don't know if you had any of that.

Yeah, I. I've never really thought about it like that or, like, in that perspective, but I think that that makes a lot of sense.

I mean, we have friends for, you know, different reasons and different seasons.

And, like, did you ever tell a friend, like, I'm just having a horrible day, and I just feel terrible and, like, cry to them?

I never would do that, like, in a million years would I ever do that.

No, I. I'm the same way.

If I. I mean, honestly, a lot of days, I. I didn't really feel that bad, but I was always just kind of tired.

But there definitely were times where I didn't feel good, but I just felt like, you know, get it together, Jessica.

Nobody wants to kind of hear you.

Complain, but that's what my husband always says.

My husband's like, I don't know what happened.

I can't remember.

But I said, oh, did you tell your friends?

And he's like, they don't care.

He's like, they don't want to hear me, you know, have a.

You know.

He's like, why would I bring that up?

And I said, I don't know.

It's kind of a big deal to you.

Like, it upset you.

I'm just curious why you didn't share that with them.

And he's like, what are they going to do about it?

You know?

He's like, nobody wants to hear other people complain about.

I just think it's interesting.

And I really attribute that to, like, that Midwest, nice culture, which have, you know, like, the whole we don't air our dirty laundry type culture.

Yeah.

Which is totally how I, you know, was raised.

Yes.

My.

My parents thought it was, like, being incredibly disloyal if you ever shared something that you were going through with your family or.

You know what I mean?

That was upsetting to you.

Just.

It did not happen.

I know.

I kind of feel like I was raised that way also, and just having respect for your parents and not.

Not, you know, saying anything negative.

And I think that that did really change for Me, though, not, like, the respect factor, but just the being vulnerable aspect.

Letting people come in and, like, really telling them, like, how I was feeling or just, like, letting people be helpful because that.

That really made, I think, the friendships stronger because I let them in.

If I would have just kind of shut people out, then they might not have been as supportive and helpful.

Yeah.

Did you.

Did you ever feel like, oh, this person's definitely going to be there for me, and then they weren't, and vice versa.

Like, was there somebody unexpected who stepped into your story that you didn't expect?

Because I. I find that almost happens in every single Survivor story.

There's always somebody that they're disappointed in, and then there's always somebody that they're thrilled with that they would have never guessed would kind of insert themselves into the situation.

Yeah.

I think that by the time I got to breast cancer, I feel like I had kind of gotten through all of that just because what I'm.

What I'm trying to say is I've had three people in my immediate family that have passed away, and so I feel like it's kind of similar.

Like, when I was going through those, I feel like people kind of really show you their true colors, and it's same thing with breast cancer.

But by the time I got to going through breast cancer, I feel like I had kind of worked through those other friendships and, like, thoughts, because I definitely think when you're going through something really hard, people show you who they really are, and it is kind of eye opening, and it is kind of disappointing when you think somebody's going to be there for you and then they're not.

And it does kind of make you question, I think, yourself.

But really, I think we need to kind of flip it, and maybe it's an issue that the other person has also.

Do you know what I'm saying?

And dealing with whatever it is that you're going through.

Does that make sense, what I'm saying?

No, it totally does.

I think some people.

It's really interesting.

I once brought this up to somebody about, you know, kind of more superficial friendships versus something deeper where somebody can really support you in something hard.

And sometimes survivors will take it really personally.

Like, I thought we were really good friends, and then where were you?

But this person, I can't remember if they had a therapy background or not, but they said, it's really not about you.

It's really about the other person being emotionally immature, which I thought was really interesting.

It's like I'm sitting there, internalizing this thinking, gosh, I thought we were better friends than this.

But really, it's about the other person's inability to really kind of enter into somebody else's grief and really, like, be there for them in a meaningful way.

And it's really more about their emotional immaturity.

And I thought that was kind of a fascinating.

Like you said, flip the script, right?

Yeah.

And so I. I don't know that there was anybody in particular where I was just like, oh, my gosh, they totally weren't there for me.

It wasn't like that.

It was just more, maybe more realizing that a lot of the people that we had dealt with in the past were emotionally immature and not capable of really feeling comfortable.

Right.

In the uncomfortable.

Because I get it.

Unless you've been through it, it is hard to know how to deal with somebody who's encountered tragedy that's not even related to cancer.

I mean, we've all been in that situation where we've encountered somebody that's gone through something really terrible or difficult.

And it is.

It can be awkward.

You know, you don't know what to say.

You don't want to upset them.

You're not sure if you bring it up or if you ignore it.

And so I. I totally get it.

And that's kind of where my husband and I landed with it was, you know what?

People do the best they can, and a lot of them just don't know any better because they haven't been through it themselves.

And it definitely made me more compassionate going through that.

I thought, oh, my gosh, anytime somebody goes through something hard now, I'm gonna have a level of empathy that I wouldn't have had, you know, had I not gone through cancer myself.

Yes, I completely agree.

I mean, you just don't know what it's like to go through whatever hard thing it is until you've been through something similar or a similar situation, or you've kind of been like, the caregiver for somebody that has gone through the similar situation.

So, I mean.

And that's great for the people that don't know.

You know, that's great because they haven't had to experience that.

But it is.

It is hard because you.

I feel like I've heard people say they, like, expect this level of compassion and empathy, and then when people are unable to give it to you, when you're expecting it, it is.

It is hard.

But we just have to.

I think, like, we.

We've been talking about flip it and just say, well, they.

They don't know.

You don't know what you don't know, right?

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Gary and I had that moment.

We had a friend from college, and they didn't live near us.

They were in a different state.

But we heard through the grapevine that his wife was diagnosed with cancer.

And this was before I had been diagnosed.

And so Gary would routinely call him and just see how things are going and check in and, you know how guys are.

Guys, you want to talk about not going very deep.

Like, guys are just like, hey, man, how's it going?

Anything we can do?

How's your wife?

And then, you know, that's their way of, like, the pat on the back.

And he would do that, you know?

But after I got cancer, we both questioned, did we do enough?

Should we have done more?

Like, we should have probably done more.

And, yeah, to your point, you just don't know until you go through it yourself.

So I always try to kind of.

I don't want to minimize people's feelings when they're hurt because somebody wasn't there for them the way they anticipated.

At the same time, I'm.

I'm kind of always reluctant to kind of tell people to chuck the friendship completely if it's just, you know, they.

They don't know, you know?

You know, and so it's just.

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's important to.

To think about, like, friends being kind of flexible.

And, you know, if.

If somebody can't be there for you, it doesn't mean that they don't necessarily want to be your friend.

It's just they are maybe struggling with how to help, and if.

If you don't also let them help.

And I think that that was something that was really hard for me, was to reach out and ask for help.

But once you can kind of maybe get over yourself a little bit.

Like, for me, it was like, okay, get over yourself, Jessica, and get.

Get you need some help, or you need a.

You need a friend, or you just need to laugh.

And once you then ask if.

And then they can give you what you want, then that would maybe be another way to kind of see if the friendship is still there.

I just.

I think sometimes we take things personal, and they're not really.

They're not really personal, but it's hard in the moment to not take it personal.

Yeah, I agree.

Before.

Okay, so let's, like, talk about grieving and kind of reframing, although we've kind of already touched on that.

But before we do that, do you want to do Boobs in the news.

Of course.

All right.

Boobs in the News is a fun segment where we read funny tweets by real people or ridiculous news stories.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

I said, sent you a picture on your email.

I got it.

Did you get it?

Okay.

I did.

I did.

Okay.

I wanted you to have the visual.

So It's.

Apple made a 230 crossbody sock.

Okay.

That's $230.

$230.

And if you saw.

If you.

I mean, if the people listening, if you saw this picture, it's literally like this person's wearing a sock around their body.

And it's supposed to be for your iPhone.

I believe it's a knitted bag is what they're calling it.

But it really does kind of look like a sock designed to snugly, snug, snuggly encase your iPhone.

So instead of using, like, a purse or a pocket, I guess you're supposed to use this sock.

And a shorter version is available in additional color options, including vivid orange, yellow, purple, pink, and turquoise for 149.95.

Wow.

And you can't wear it across your body, but you can hook it over your arm or tie it to a bag.

Oh, yeah, I know.

It's like, that makes all the difference.

I'm in.

Apple says that the 3D knitted design was inspired by a piece of cloth.

Okay.

Wow.

And was born from the idea of creating an additional pocket that accommodates any iPhone and small, everyday items.

Oh, my gosh.

I mean.

And it's ugly.

Like, it's.

It is not the best, but it is kind of genius because how.

How many times are you somewhere and you don't have any pockets, but you need your phone and you don't want to carry it in your hands because maybe you're doing things with your hands or you need to be, like, ready to go.

And it is.

I mean, I can see that there's a place for it.

Okay, but why wouldn't you just wear a regular crossbody?

Well, what if you don't want a purse?

Like, what if you.

But you can just put your phone in it?

But a.

But a purse or crossbody is, like, bulkier.

I mean, it is bulkier, but I mean.

Okay, let's just go straight to.

Okay, let's ignore functionality, because I feel like the athlete in you is trying to find a reason to make this.

Okay.

First of all, it's not even sporty looking.

It's.

No, it's knitted.

It looks like something your grandma or your aunt Ida would like knit for you and you'd have to pretend to like it at Christmas, like so it's not sporty.

Actually, you could probably knit that if you're a knitter.

Yes.

Actually, you know what, my admin person, Ashley is a knitter and I bet if I showed her this, she could have, she could have that done in like one minute.

I bet it wouldn't even take that long.

Yeah.

If you know, if you know what you're doing.

I don't know what I'm doing when it comes to knitting.

So the design director, and I can't pronounce his name, he says that the iPhone pocket explores the concept of the joy of wearing iPhone in your own way.

Okay.

Yeah.

Did you know that, did you know that that Apple did try to make a go of $29 iPod socks as a revolutionary new product back in 2004?

I did not.

Yeah, I think even Steve Jobs had mocked that.

So my, my thing is, is when you're selling phones for what.

What is new Apple iPhones go for now?

Like, I don't know, aren't they like $800, $900?

Yeah, I was going to say a thousand.

I don't know.

Okay, so if you're selling, I'm like so anti Apple, it's not even funny.

But if it's so like if you're buying a phone for $1,000, why are you wasting your time on crossbody?

You know what I mean?

On a crossbody sock.

You know what would really make this even better is if it blocked emf.

Oh, there you go.

See, you're going to functionality again.

You and I are the exact same.

I have to ask you this, this is a complete detour.

But this is how my brain works.

So you are utilitarian.

Like you're like me.

It's like if it makes sense, if it's, if it's going to make my life easier, I'm going to embrace this.

Would you?

And I think I know the answer to this.

But how do you feel, how do you feel as a mom about the minivan?

Oh, I don't like it.

Yeah, I knew you wouldn't.

But I'm surprised by that because you are a utility person and I am pro minivan.

I would love.

You are?

Yes.

I love a good minivan.

Really?

Yes.

Because my garage is very small now.

You have a three car garage, right?

Yep, yep.

Yeah, I don't.

I have a two car garage.

And what happens when you have kids and you have cars that you want to keep in nice shape, they're constantly opening the doors into my garage.

And a minivan eliminates that with the sliding door.

And it always has the individual bucket seats to where they can't touch each other.

No, those are both great points.

Yes.

But I also feel like you have three kids.

I have two, so maybe that would change it.

Yeah.

I mean, I do think you have to take.

My point being is that I am with you.

If it makes sense and it's going to make my life easier, I'm all good.

But obviously, your line is the minivan.

That's not.

It's not.

It's not that important to you, Jess.

Nope.

Now.

Now they have SUVs that can kind of fit that same, you know, material.

Bucket seats.

Yeah, bucket seats.

Like our Subaru is bucket seats.

And it's worth every penny to have a Subaru and to not.

Yeah.

Not to let the kids touch each other.

But I digress.

Let's get back to it.

There's your boobs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs in the news, baby.

Okay, so I am curious, how many people do you.

Do you talk to other survivors about their friendships or their relationships post treatment?

Like, what are your thoughts on how they feel?

I feel like most people feel like their people really rallied around them.

I do agree with you.

I do agree with you.

I don't think this is something.

I think that typically, there's usually, like I said, they can reflect on their journey, and there might be one person that they were surprised or disappointed in.

And then there was somebody who kind of popped in unexpectedly.

So back to that question.

Was there somebody that you weren't particularly close to that really showed an interest in you once you got diagnosed?

Oh, yes.

I mean, I. I felt like I was brought to tears so many times because of kindness of other people reaching out or sending a gift or mailing cards.

So many people, I feel like, really stepped up.

I really felt the love.

I really did.

Yeah, I agree.

I might have told this story on a previous podcast, but my husband at the time was working for a company, and his.

I don't want to botch this, but his boss's counterpart.

So it wasn't my husband's direct boss.

It was my husband's boss's direct counterpart.

His wife had had breast cancer 20 years prior, and so Gary didn't even report to him, but he found out about me and his wife, who didn't know me from Adam, sent me the Most lovely letter in the mail just basically saying, I know how scary this is and it's awful, but, you know, I'm 20 years out and living my best life, and you can do this.

And I can't even tell you.

I mean, you know what that does for you when you're in that.

In that moment, you know, to have somebody take the time to really encourage you like that.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, it just lifts your spirit and it gives you hope, you know.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, you know, we kind of talked about it.

It's not really that people don't care.

It's just that they don't have the emotional range yet to sit in hard things.

Maybe that's because they've never experienced it, which, like you said, lucky them.

Or maybe they just don't know what to do.

You know, it's just awkward for them.

They're not quite sure how to be there for you.

But I think, you know, when people.

People will routinely ask me, should I do this for so and so, or is that too much?

And my answer to them is, I don't think you can care too much.

Like, I've never heard somebody going through cancer be like, oh, my gosh, so and so just keeps encouraging me and, you know.

Right.

And keeps popping up and asking how they can help me.

I mean, I've just never heard that, you know, really encouraging people to replace, like, pulse politeness with presence.

You don't have to say the perfect thing.

Just show up.

Right.

Is really the best advice I can give to people.

Show up in a meaningful way.

I don't know, what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's just remembering just to be nice.

And I think that even just like, sending a text.

Well, and here's my point, too, is like, okay, let's just say you look back at your journey and you're thinking, oh, you know, my friends weren't there for me the way that I had really envisioned.

This is an opportunity.

You know, when you're post cancer, you're going to have to rediscover yourself, right?

That you're not going to be the same person.

You're going to be a different person with different ideas and feelings and goals for the future.

Now, that's just how it is.

And so you can look at it as one of two ways, you know, like, okay, you know, these people disappointed me, or I really understand now what I'm looking for in my relationships.

And to your point about kind of cutting out the negative People, if they're not fitting your values anymore or your needs, it's perfectly acceptable to let those friendships fade.

Right.

You know, we all have moments and seasons in our lives where friendships that we've had for a long time, it's just you're not in alignment with each other's values anymore, and that's perfectly okay.

So it could be a growth opportunity, I think.

Well, I completely agree with you.

I think that especially going through breast cancer, it does make you kind of reevaluate your life and the people that are in it.

And it is okay if, you know, when you.

When you go through something like breast cancer, I think your priorities change also.

And so if your friendships don't have the same priorities, then, then there is going to be a natural kind of fade.

And it doesn't mean that you're not friends or your enemies, but it's just you're maybe just not as close to some people as you have been in previous, you know, seasons in life.

Yeah.

So I think it's just.

I think it's just trying to remember to be kind of flexible and, you know, like, with friendships, I think there's kind of three.

Three, like, strong pillars.

There's this author that I just read her book over the summer.

You guys might have heard of her, Mel Robbins.

But she talks about how she's kind.

Of a big deal right now.

She is kind of a big deal, but she talks about how there's three pillars of friendship, and it's about proximity.

Like, who's.

Who are you around the most?

Like co workers and people that are.

You see on the daily basis.

She talks about timing, like your chapters in life, and the energy that people bring, they bring to you and you bring to them.

And I think you have to have a mutual respect for each other.

And without that mutual respect, unfortunately, it's just probably not going to be as close of a friendship as maybe you once were.

Oh, my gosh.

That nails it on the head because you talked a little bit about energy.

Right.

Like, you want your friends to have a certain energy that you feel like match what you're going for, and then you're right.

Like the timing piece.

But proximity.

People underestimate proximity.

Yes.

You know how many times.

I don't know if this is true for you, but I used to be in the sales world, and inevitably every time I would take a new sales job, my new best friends would be my coworkers.

We all had similar personalities.

We were all in that business for a reason.

We all.

It was Just so funny, because I would instantly, like, bond with them and we would have the best time.

But do you know what would happen inevitably if one of us moved on?

We would stay in touch for a little while and then we would drift apart.

And it wasn't that we didn't care about each other, we didn't like each other anymore.

It's just the proximity factor.

Right.

I mean, I. Yeah, that has happened to me so many times, just in different circles.

You're around people, you're close to them.

I mean, Mel Robbins even talks about in her book that in order for like an adult friendship to become, to like move past the acquaintance, it's like 90 something hours that you have to be around somebody.

So if you think about it, when you're around somebody for work, you're naturally, you know, all of those hours count towards your friendship.

So you're naturally going to go maybe a little bit deeper than somebody that you're not around as much.

Yeah, that's.

That is, like, so true.

And it makes me wonder too, with some of these friendships that I had that I thought were kind of superficial.

Were they superficial or was it just because when I got breast cancer, I was in the throes of parenthood, you know, my kids were 6, 4 and 1 year old, and my friends were all in the same season and we were not seeing each other or doing things with each other to the same extent that we were before we all had kids, you know, and so you really have to kind of evaluate.

It's a really interesting point to make, is evaluate, you know, those three things, proximity, timing and energy.

Because if any of those things are off, it really could be easy to sit there and say they're just a bad friend.

But it goes both ways, right?

Definitely.

Yeah.

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All right, we're back.

Any final words for those listening?

This is all about relationships, right?

Yes.

Yes.

Friendships.

Friendships are so.

They can be so fun.

And I do think that sometimes we have to get out of our own head and maybe be the first person.

And I know it's hard when you're going through something difficult, but maybe be the person to reach out and say, hey, I miss you.

Let's go for a walk or meet up for a coffee.

And I think that sometimes we also have to.

I mean, that feels so good.

Have you ever gotten a message from somebody that you haven't heard from in a while and you're like, oh, my goodness, so and so is just.

They were thinking about me, and they sent me this message.

It goes a long way to just.

To be the.

Be the bigger person and reach out and be friendly and be somebody that you want to be friends with yourself.

Yeah, I like that.

I think release the blame is kind of my messaging.

Right.

It's not about who failed.

It's just about who kind of grew in a different direction.

Celebrate, you know, the people that did show up and the people that surprised you in really beautiful ways and stay open to new friendships.

You know, if you feel like your old group isn't serving you anymore, then just look at it as an opportunity for personal growth and to find the people that really are your people now.

So, yes, I love that, because going through a hard time can really give you some of the best friends, you know, that are in the future that you don't even know yet.

Right?

Yeah.

Keep.

Keep yourself open, because that's where opportunities occur.

All right, guys, until next time.

See ya.

Thank you for being a listener of the Besties with Breasties podcast.

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