S5E32: Navigating Mortality: Faith and Hope in the Face of Death

Welcome to the Besties with Breasties podcast.

Sarah hall here I am a certified health and wellness coach, athletic trainer, mom, and breast cancer survivor.

I help women overcome their own mind drama to make mind shifts that open up the possibility for their most empowered and energetic life.

And I am Beth Wilmes, author, speaker, and founder of a human investment organization, otherwise known as a nonprofit called Faith Through Fire.

Our mission is to reduce the fear and anxiety that breast cancer patients feel and replace it with hope and a path toward thriving.

This podcast is about our experiences with.

Breast cancer and life after as young survivors and moms.

All right, Jamie.

So Jamie is with us today, guest hosting.

So great to have you on as usual, Jamie.

All right, I'm just diving right in.

There's.

There's no good way to say this.

Are you afraid to die?

Whoa.

Yeah.

Can we get a warm up softball pitch?

No.

No.

The.

The short answer is no, but it's a.

It's a complex longer story.

But you know what?

I think it is like, I'm not afraid to die either.

Like, when we talk about dying, I. I am not particularly excited about the idea of being uncomfortable or in pain.

Yeah.

And I think there's a distinction.

Yeah.

You know, and I wonder, like, when people have a fear of dying, are they actually afraid of death itself or do you think they're worried about leading up to death?

I would, I would think the.

The leading up to.

And I would just think, like, it's the emotional, like, wrestling that happens.

It's like the physical.

You know, you have people to assist you with that, but it's like the emotional wrestling with it that I think is like, potentially really just.

You talked, you'll talk in the podcast about the reconciliation with, you know, self, others, God.

Yeah, a lot of things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So today we're going to be talking with Patty Kirkland.

She's a pastor with the Crossing Church in St. Peter's Missour.

She has personal experience with death.

She lost her husband recently.

She routinely walks with other people as they encounter hard things or prepare to die.

And this podcast is based on the Christian faith, which is the foundation for faith through fire.

So first we're going to talk about how death is not the end.

It's a transition to eternal life.

Then we'll talk about how faith sustains us through fear and uncertainty.

And finally, we'll discuss how living with eternity in mind changes how we both live and die.

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Alright, well, welcome.

Patty.

Thank you for being here.

Oh, thanks for having me.

It's an honor.

Yeah.

So we were just talking about death, which is a topic that a lot of people find very scary.

And for some people it is really scary.

But for the Christian, death is not the end.

It's kind of a transition to eternal life.

So what are your thoughts about that?

I mean, you're in pastoral care, you deal with a lot of people going through some really hard things.

What are your insights into that and how do people typically perceive death and what would you want them to know about death?

Those are a lot of really heavy questions.

I know.

We don't mess around, Patti.

We go right into it.

I know, and I love that.

That's what I love about you guys.

I think one of the things that helps and actually going through this whole thing of breast cancer has really helped me understand things a little bit more.

That there's a book called Eternity is now in session.

And that means that it's not like I'm waiting for eternity.

That in death starts eternity.

No.

What I have seen from scripture and just walking this path with the likes of my husband who passed away, it'll be a year on Sunday, passed away from Parkinson's disease, that our eternal life begins now and here and that death is.

This is.

Yes, it's a transition.

It's like opening another door.

But when I started to realize that nobody gets out of this life alive, no matter how healthy we Are.

I think that that's an important point to make because I had to really grapple with that when I got diagnosed, when I was facing my own mortality, I had to sit there and logically ask myself, well, what did you think?

Did you think you were going to go through this entire life and you weren't going to die?

And of course, the answer was no.

You know, I think we all know, right, that we're all going to die.

It's just that when we're faced with it, it just feels so different because.

This life is all we've ever known.

You know, I think of it like the baby in the womb.

You know, you're carrying this baby in the womb, and you want to tell them, wait till you taste ice cream and.

And.

And.

And wait till you run through the grass and see the sunshine and all that.

But all they know is that comfort of being in the womb.

It's warm, it's dark, it's cozy.

I get three squares a day, and why would I want to leave?

But there's so much more.

And I think that's the thing that's really started to become amplified for me as I started to just go, okay, God, we have no guarantees other than today, so what beauty is there in today?

To see you, to see other people through your eyes, to just enjoy the day that God has given us, no matter how it looks.

Yeah.

I think scripture reassures us that death is a passage, not a termination, which is kind of what you're talking about.

And it is hard to comprehend.

But, you know, the baby in the womb is a perfect example.

Right.

Of you don't know what you don't know.

And so that's kind of where exactly.

Yeah.

Faith comes in.

And, you know, obviously, Jesus is resurrected is the cornerstone of our hope.

He defeated death, so we don't have to, which is why this transition is even possible.

And heaven is a real place, and I think people struggle with that, too.

Like, we recently suffered a loss in my family, and I have relatives that are saying, but where are they?

Where are they?

And I'm like, they're in.

You know, they were a believer, so they're in heaven.

And it's like, for them, it's really hard to comprehend heaven as an actual real place.

And I think there's so much out there that kind of speaks to that scripturally.

And does that give you comfort, knowing that Russ is in a real place in heaven in the presence of Jesus?

Like, how does that.

How does heaven resonate in your mind?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

A couple of things.

There's that realization in scripture talks about that he has put eternity into the hearts of men, of men, of women, of people.

And that.

That says that there is this.

This idea of eternity and that our souls were meant to go on, but then also Jesus coming on the scene, and he was not resurrected in spirit, he was resurrected in body.

And.

And that promise, that promise that.

That Jesus actually did resurrect, rise from the dead is like, that's a reality coming to us.

That's that reminder that, yes, we will live again.

And it's not the picture that some people have of sitting on a cloud and strumming a harp and everything, but that the scripture talks about that there will be work for us to do, that it's not just us being transformed, this earth is transformed, that there's newness of this.

God is redeeming the place that we live.

And there's a pastor who I love how he says he's bringing up there, down here, that heaven and earth meet.

That was the example of when they built the temple in the days of Jesus.

The temple, the holy of holies, was the place where heaven and earth met.

That's what God has in store for us.

That's my hope and that's what I cling to, to know that one Parkinson's does not get the last word in my husband's life, and breast cancer doesn't get the last word in my life.

Yeah, we've already conquered death through Christ, and that's where I get my comfort from.

I don't know about you, Jamie, but it's like that's where it all sits.

It's just in the Jesus's resurrection.

And there's people out there who are not familiar with the Christian faith.

Maybe they're a little ambivalent about it.

Does.

Is Jesus real?

Is heaven real?

And for those people listening, I would encourage you to become a history buff, because the historical data that exists that shows that the resurrection of Christ happened is pretty overwhelming, especially if you compare it to other historical events that have already been validated by scholars.

So, you know, if that's you and you're a little like, I don't know, you know, I would encourage you to go down that path because I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

But, you know, heaven as a promised home, a place of no pain, tears, or suffering, but we get to kind of keep the essence of who we are.

I think that's, like, hard for some people, is they think they have to give up who they were as a person.

And that's not true.

You're just like, what I said to my family members after our loved one pass is like, now that person's like, version 2.0, you know?

Exactly.

We are more ourselves.

I firmly believe my husband was a great musician, fantastic vocalist, and completely creative in every way possible.

And I'm looking forward to seeing that someday, really.

In Technicolor, so to speak.

You know, now that Parkinson's no longer has hold of his body and that he is in the arms of Jesus.

When you look at scripture and talks about when he's on the cross and he's between those two thieves that Jesus tells, the one that, you know, from now, you.

You will be with me in.

In heaven.

I think that's like, a really hard concept for people, too, as you have two thieves on the cross, right.

And they're both sitting there, and they know that they deserve to be there.

And the one that repents is the one that Jesus says, you're going to be with me today in heaven.

I think that's.

I. I think it's beautiful.

And it's such a expression of God's heart, is that we are, you know, he is pursuing us to the very end.

But it can be hard for people who think, well, you know, there's this status you have to maintain as a Christian in order to earn your way into heaven.

And it's like, no, that's the whole point is you don't need to do that.

You know, that's.

For all we know that the other guy on the other side, you know, his story is not told.

We don't know if he decided to just, you know, yeah, maybe this is the Son of God.

Jesus was there to forgive and welcome him as well.

Yeah.

I'd be curious about both your Jamie and Patty's, like, your faith walk.

Like, was this an evolution for both of you, or was it something where you were born and raised and you knew immediately, like, where your faith was?

Oh, Patty's laughing.

She must have a story.

I was baptized Catholic because I had, you know, a dad who, you know, Italian, Catholic.

That's what you do.

But I knew nothing.

I didn't know that Christmas and Easter were.

Were connected.

So I was pretty unchurched.

You know, again, going back to that scripture that talks about that he has placed eternity into the hearts of men, I felt like there was something more to this life.

I didn't know what it was.

I just knew that there was something more than the things that I could see.

And touch and feel with my limited senses.

And so I just began a search.

Was there a moment, Jamie, for you, like, where you felt the same?

Like, you felt like there was more to life than just what we could see?

Yeah, there's been many moments similar to Patty.

I was raised in the church, but I didn't discover the relational component with God until young adulthood when hardship happened.

And I realized there's got to be more than what's right in front of me.

And it was actually the death of a child, of a dear friend of mine that I think that was the first time that I felt that yearning for heaven and that understanding that we were never meant to for this place, and that total healing and harmony happens when we return home.

I had a similar situation.

I was kind of ambivalent about faith, at least until I had my son, who's my oldest.

And the minute I had him, I thought, well, what do I want for him?

Am I going to tell him that this world is meaningless?

That there's no purpose?

That it's just like you're here and then you're dust and there's nothing more?

And it didn't resonate with my soul.

I was like, no, there's more to this story than what I know.

And that was the prompt for me to kind of start down the path of relationship with God.

I think that's interesting that all of us.

I do think that that's what happens.

There's some sort of event that propels people to discover or to search, you know, and that's how he kind of whispers to you.

And for me, it took like, I. I did a lot of reading.

I looked into other religions.

I even looked into the occult because I felt like.

And this was as a teenager, I was in high school, but I felt like, well, there's something supernatural there, so I'm going to check that out.

But I had a friend who continually wanted to invite me to church, and it was the last thing I wanted to do.

I did not want to get up early on a Sunday morning.

But she never gave up.

Until finally one day I said, okay, fine, I'll come.

And then you get to stop asking me and inviting me.

And little did I know that that was the day I was going to hear this amazing story that permeates every book of Scripture, all 66 books of Jesus, of what he did for us, the redemption that is presented to us, that I didn't have to clean myself up, change that.

This was this free gift.

And I just.

I guess they call it, they used to call it an altar call.

I just went forward, I just said, this is what I've been looking for.

My life, that was May 17th of 1970, and my life has changed ever since then.

I think that's the beauty and complexity of God.

That his heart is to pursue each and every one of us and that's not time bound.

And yet he honors free will and that it's a choice.

It is, it's not a, it's not a requirement.

But that he is, he will pursue.

And when we're ready, he's there with open arms.

I think that's beautiful.

Can we, can we talk about, though, the reality of embracing God and Jesus?

Because I remember when I was contemplating, okay, if you're, if you're really gonna do this, like, if you're gonna go all in and just give your life your control, which is really what it was for me, my goodness, my control of my life over to God.

I remember distinctly thinking, your life is going to get harder, not easier.

And I thought that's.

That couldn't be.

That couldn't be anything other than the Holy Spirit just reminding me, like, hey, you take this plunge, I promise you it's going to be harder, but it's going to be worth it.

And that's what I decided.

Ultimately.

I said, okay, God, I'm all yours.

I jump.

I jumped in with both feet and you know what?

I'll be darned.

My life got more complicated and more difficult and in some ways more painful.

But oh my gosh, so rich and so beautiful and so complex and just so.

It's like you said, walking through a whole different dimension or door.

And so whenever anybody's grappling with their faith or they're deconstructing their faith, you know, it's a natural part of the process, which I kind of want to talk about a little bit.

Just the process of really wrestling with God until you get there, but does promise to be more difficult because you have to give up what you want for yourself, how you want to live, what you want to do, and you have to hand it all over to Him.

And that is for most women, especially in the women at Faith Through Fire, we all tend to be a bunch of control freaks.

That can be really, that can be really hard.

But I want to remind you, you know, and we started this by talking about death.

You know, fear of death is.

Fear of death is completely natural.

But faith reframes it as part of the bigger story.

You know, when you really embrace your faith, you Realize there is no death.

And so then, you know, it loses its sting.

We always talk about like, oh, I've made friends with death.

I really think I've made friends with death because there is no death for me.

You know, I will have a transition, but I will not die.

And so for me, that's kind of my thought process and that's how I get, you know, I get to the other side of it.

But, you know, let's talk about people who are really kind of, you know, wrestling with this concept of faith and what it all means.

Because you know, the world is going to tell you one thing.

And being a faith filled person means you're going to be living contrary to that.

And that sucks because you feel like you're on the out.

You know, you can feel like you're on the outside looking in.

You can feel like you're like, not with the cool kids anymore.

You know, did you guys have that sense?

Did it feel like that for you?

Oh, the cool kids.

Patty's like, I don't care about those cool kids.

No.

You know, it became, I felt like I left despair.

I walked away from a hopelessness.

My mom, God rest her soul, she.

I was raised by a single mom and she did the best she could and I'm just, I honor her for that.

But she suffered greatly from mental illness.

She tried to take her life several times.

I remember going to school and opening up my book bag and there was a suicide note.

And I'm like, I guess I think I need to go to my guidance counselor and show her this.

And so she was not successful.

She lived to be 95 and she found Jesus and that changed everything for her.

Wow.

How old was she when she found Jesus?

In her 50s.

Okay, I believe 40s.

50S.

Yeah.

And.

And it changed everything for her as well too in our relationship.

But I realized when, while my mother was still dealing with this mental illness that God was saying, there is, there is more.

And let me show you a life, you know, apart from this.

And I love, I love, I love the honesty of Jesus.

When you, you, you read where he says, in this world you will have trouble.

He didn't whitewash it.

He did not say, everything's be okay and there's pie in the sky and all of those things.

In this world you will have trouble.

But take heart, I have overcome the world.

And that's what I just needed to know that, yes, I'm going to have issues.

Yes, I'm going to have a husband that was diagnosed with Parkinson's.

At the age of 38.

But the fact that Jesus said, I will be with you always.

I've overcome the world.

I want to talk about, you know, trusting in God's character, his goodness, his mercy, his presence, and then maybe some.

You know, how we can feel closer to God or live with eternity in mind when we're fearful of death.

But before we do that, you guys want to do Boobs in the News?

Let's do it.

All right.

Boobs in the news is a fun segment where we read funny tweets by real people or ridiculous news stories.

Boobs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

All right, you ready for this?

Boobs?

Yes, ma'.

Am.

This one's dark.

Not gonna lie.

Since we're talking about death, let's just go there.

The title of this one is an Australian woman is on trial for murder by toxic mushrooms.

Yes.

She poisoned someone.

She poisoned someone.

You know why I gravitated to this story was because I was just at the farmer's market and I bought 50 worth of mushrooms.

Now you're second guess.

I'm not kidding.

I'm not.

It did cross my mind because my husband and kids like to go mushroom hunting for the morels.

Gotta be careful.

And I'm like, I won't eat them.

I'm like, you guys don't know what you're doing.

And my husband's like, they're very obviously morels.

And I said, mm, yeah, right.

So while I was buying $50 worth of mushrooms, I'm sitting there thinking, do I trust that this man knows his stuff and I can eat these without peril.

Yeah, this lady.

Let me see here.

I just lost the story.

There we go.

A suburban Australian mom is standing trial on charges of poisoning several of her estranged husband's relatives.

What with death cap mushrooms at a home cooked meal, killing three of them.

Holy smokes.

Wait, was her.

Wait, did you say ex husband or husband?

Okay, but it wasn't even her husband.

That's what I'm.

It was her estranged husband's relatives.

That's dark.

I wonder if she's setting him up for the murders.

Oh, I don't know.

Says the case against Aaron Patterson.

Oh, that sounds like such a mom name.

Like, you know, like, oh, you know, Aaron down the street from pta.

She poisoned them all.

Oh, my gosh.

Sounds so innocent.

Okay, so she was in court.

She's expired.

Okay.

She's 50 years old.

She's accused of putting death cap mushrooms, which are among the most poisonous in the world, in a beef wellington.

Dish that she served to guests on on a July lunch at her home in a town of less than 6,000 people, 85 miles from Melbourne.

Oh, my gosh.

Prosecutors say Peterson, who was separated from but on good terms with her husband, invited his parents, aunt and uncle over for an adult only lunch, ostensibly to discuss medical issues she was facing.

And her husband, her ex husband, had declined the invitation.

Okay, so he was supposed to be there.

This is wild.

Yeah.

Do you think he was in partnership with her?

Oh, I don't know.

That's even darker.

I don't know.

Are we?

We're going down this rabbit hole.

It says all four of Patterson's lunch guests were hospitalized with gastrointestinal symptoms the day after the meal.

Three of them died the following week, all from altered liver function and multiple organ failure during due to the amanita mushroom poisoning.

Oh, my gosh.

Prosecutors accused Patterson of lying about a cancer diagnosis as a pretense for the lunch, deliberately poisoning her guests, not eating the same dish as them, and pretending to suffer similar symptoms as an attempted cover up.

Wow.

I wonder what she was hoping to gain.

I mean, innocent until proven guilty, it says.

The prosecutor said the prosecution will not be suggesting that there was a particular motive to do what she did.

No, she just crazy.

She's just crazy.

She's just cray cray.

That's insane.

Says Patterson admits to lying to police on two instances in the aftermath about owning a food dehydrator and forgering for mushrooms.

Okay.

I mean, this is crazy.

I don't know what this woman's like.

She's the boob.

She's the boob.

Don't poison your ex husband and all of his relatives, people.

You're going to get caught.

I think it's hilarious that she thought that this wasn't going to get traced back to her.

Everyone but her.

You invite everybody over for a dinner, everybody gets sick but you, and you have a dehydrator, and you're probably.

That smells like mushrooms.

What an idiot.

There's your boobs.

Bibs in the news.

Bibs in the news.

Okay.

And we're back.

So let's talk about, you know, how do we start to trust in God's character?

And how do we start trusting in the fact that this life isn't all there is, that eternity, you know, that we aren't going to die when we're in Jesus.

Jamie, what do you do?

What kind of tools?

Strengthen your faith and help you walk as a survivor in faith.

Yeah.

As I was listening to you talk, I Was thinking a lot about our boot camps and how we actively encourage and support wrestling with these very concepts because it's easy to love God on the mountaintops when things are going well, but our faith is truly challenged when we're in the valleys.

And we can say that we trust God, but what does that look actively in the hardest moments of our life?

I don't know about you two, but I felt closest to God during my active cancer treatment, and I think it was because I was faced with this huge mountain, knowing I couldn't scale it alone.

And so we talk about heart posture a lot.

And what does it look like to have open palms versus closed fists and controlling our way through things that are already finished for us?

You know, God knows our number of days before we do.

And so what does it look like to walk in a way that is faith filled with supernatural peace?

And so for me, it's a lot of that letting go of control that you talked about, Beth, that, you know, God, it's not my will, but yours.

Holy Spirit, give me the strength to navigate these moments.

You know, it's okay to pray for pain to be taken away.

It's okay to go to him and say, I don't understand.

Help me understand.

I can't do this alone.

You know, we talk about lamenting to our Father and what does it look like to have righteous anger and then a petition, give me the tools.

Give me the way.

Show me the light.

He can handle all of it.

And I think sometimes we think he can't, and we're better off with our plan.

But the second that we change our heart posture and ask him to lead, I think miracles happen.

Yeah, I agree, Jamie.

Those words are so good.

Those words are so good.

And it's absolutely true.

And I think that it's that reminder that when we get angry at God, and let's face it, we all find some times when we scratch our heads and say, God, I love you, but I don't understand you right now in the midst of all of this, and that, yeah, God meets us in those darkest of times.

And we see that in scripture as well, too, that those are the times when you just say, I think of the dad who he wanted his son healed.

And if it was possible, and Jesus tells him, well, you know, all things are possible if you have this faith.

And the dad says, I believe.

Help my unbelief.

I've prayed that prayer so many times that I believe.

But help in those times when my faith is weak and when I struggle and to Know that God does not cast us out, reprimand us, or roll his eyes when we say that.

I think sometimes his arms are open.

Something I lean on quite a bit is asking the Holy Spirit to intercede for me.

Because there are times where things are so.

They're so painful.

You know, the concept of what's happening or the pain that we're feeling is just so numbing that I'm sitting there crying.

I'm crying out to God, but there are no words.

And so when there's no words, I often am saying, okay, Holy Spirit, I have no words.

You know my heart.

I need you to intercede on my behalf.

I need you to say the things that need to be said.

I need you to ask for the things that need to be asked.

I need you to, you know, do the hard lifting here, because I don't have it in me.

I want to do it.

And I am frozen.

And sometimes that's all my prayer is, is for somebody else, for the Holy Spirit to take the reins from me and do it the right way, because I.

Just inconsolable at this point.

And I think that there's comfort for me in that, too, is that we do have the Holy Spirit and Jesus interceding for us all the time.

They are the bridge, you know, between us and God and.

And he always can hear us.

And that's.

That's comforting to me.

So I think everything that you guys are saying is.

Is spot on.

I. I think living with eternity in mind really changes how we die and how we live.

And I. I think it.

You know, when hard things happen or when we're really fearful, our faith is kind of what empowers us to live with greater purpose, Forgiveness and peace.

Philippians 1:21 talks about that.

But there's, like, parts, too, you know, spiritually, that if you're facing death or the love.

The death of a loved one, that you can kind of prepare spiritually.

You know, you can reconcile with God and with others, which brings closure and readiness.

And you can even use the experience of death or the fear of dying to witness to other people.

You can display hope and courage and unwavering faith in the.

In the midst of really difficult things.

I can't tell you how many people I've seen just go through some really horrendous things and the amount of hope and faith that they display in that.

And it's not.

They're not putting it on.

You know, there are those that try to appear strong for others, but then there's those where it's born out of true, pure love and faith of God.

And I just think that the mark that that leaves on people is just.

You can't comprehend how many lives that touches when you're able to do that.

What about you, Patti?

You see that a lot in ministry, I would imagine.

Absolutely.

And when you were talking, it made me think about how much the community, the community of faith plays a part.

Whether it's.

I love the community and faith through fire.

I love just women who understand what another woman is going through and when one is weak, the other is strong.

And that we.

That we support one another in those different periods.

I think about the story of Ruth and Naomi in the book of Ruth and all of the losses that those women suffered of a husband and, you know, husbands and Naomi lost two sons and all of this.

And even in her bitterness towards God because she.

She says, don't call me Naomi, call me Mara.

Cause the Lord has dealt bitterly with me.

And yet God provides this woman of Ruth that says, where you go, I will go.

You know, where you stay, I will say, you know, your people will be my people and your God, my God.

It is that commitment that we have to one another, to just be there to encourage one another and build one another's faith.

Yeah.

I remember when I was going through breast cancer, I had a woman in my Bible study fellowship group, and she just kind of inserted herself in my life.

When I got diagnosed, we didn't know each other well at all, but she just prayed over me the entire time and brought so much comfort and peace to my experience.

But she said something to me that has just always stayed with me.

She's like, when you start to slide into darkness, I will be there to pull you out.

And I just.

It just.

It was just so beautiful.

And she meant it.

And it was like, okay, if I start to slide, she's going to pull me back into the sunshine.

And every time I encounter a hard thing, you know, within our community or otherwise, I just sit there and think, be the person that's going to pull the other person out back into the sunshine.

Right.

And that's.

That's.

We have the faith in God.

If you don't have it right now, if you're questioning it, if you're wrestling with it, that's okay.

That's part of the journey.

You know, keep that wrestling with him.

Keep going back and asking why and asking for more information.

And in the meantime, you know, we're going to be here to pull you out of that darkness before we Wrap up with our final words.

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All right, Patty, any final words for those listening who are grappling with a fear of death or just, you know, struggling in their faith walk?

Well, I think you pointed out some things, you know, just beautifully when you talked about the woman who just said, I'm going to be there, you know, with you.

And for you is to.

For those women that are struggling, that there's people to reach out and talk to.

You know, for people who don't have a.

A church that there's places that we can point them to, there's resources.

There's a YouTube channel that's through the Crossing, that's called A and Q, which stands for answers and questions, that has all these different kinds of questions of what about death, what happens to us?

All those things to be able to, to go and to listen.

We'll link those in the show notes, too, guys.

So those will be in the show notes.

So take a, take a look at those and you'll be able to access that.

That's great.

I would say.

Is that like, if, if you're just saying God, are you real?

Are you there?

Do you hear me?

I think that's a challenge that every one of us can put out there.

And there's a name for God in scripture called El Roi that means the God who sees me.

And God is the God who sees you who sees us and who cares.

And to ask, make yourself known, put that challenge out because he is up to the challenge.

Oh, thank you so much, Patty.

Thank you for being here.

Until next time, guys.

See you later.

Thank you for being a listener of the Besties with Breasties podcast.

If this podcast had a positive impact on your journey, leave us a review or consider becoming a supporter.

You can donate with the link in the show notes or atface through fire.org.

this episode was hosted by Sarah hall and Beth Wilas.

Audio and production edits by Innovative frequencies.